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MichaelStEdmund
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| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Mon Feb 4th, 2008 03:30 pm |
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Here's a thread starter:
John F. Kennedy, before he was president, asked the evangelist Billy Graham if he believed in the second coming of Jesus. When Graham said he did, Kennedy asked him to tell him about it.
Billy Graham said he told him about why Jesus came the first time and what the Bible said about His coming the second time. He listened with great attention, and as they pulled up to the house Kennedy said, ‘Does my church teach that?’ Graham replied, ‘Well, they believe it in their creeds and in their confessions but they don’t talk about it anymore.’”
How would you have responded to that question if you were sitting in the car next to Kennedy that day?Last edited on Mon Feb 4th, 2008 06:47 pm by MichaelStEdmund
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Feb 4th, 2008 07:36 pm |
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I would agree with Billy Graham and say that Catholics need to talk about it more from the pulpit and in classes: just as they should talk more about Catholic moral teaching (esp. on sexuality) and hell and contraception and divorce and all the usual "controversial" subjects.
The same often applies to Protestants, too: many sectors of which have lately been de-emphasizing teaching on hell and sin and doctrine generally.
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 02:46 am |
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MichaelStEdmund wrote: Graham replied, ‘Well, they believe it in their creeds and in their confessions but they don’t talk about it anymore.'
After much soul-searching, I think that this is where I would have started. Billy Graham didn't seem to understand that there is a conflict here. How can we confess (or at least hear/read along with in the Tridentine Mass) the Creed at ON A WEEKLY BASIS - the same Creed that tells us that Christ will return in glory - and then say that "they don't talk about it anymore"? In general, I'd say that Billy Graham's response was very generous for a Protestant of that era - but what he said is still falling into the tail end of the myth that at some point the Church lost the truth of the Gospel - of which the second coming of Christ is certainly a part.
I say nonsense. The second coming of Christ is proclaimed more often in the CC than it is anywhere else. With great depth and exposition? Most of the time not - but also with MUCH less in the way of guesswork, assumptions and outright error than you generally find in Protestant congregations. In outline, logical outline, it's certainly there for anyone who has ears to hear. Every week.
Last edited on Tue Feb 5th, 2008 03:02 am by MichaelStEdmund
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 03:15 am |
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Since John Kennedy was elected in 1960, before Vatican II and the current Catechism, I would have to have pointed to what was then the official teaching document of the Church, the Catechism of the Council of Trent:
"From Thence He Shall Come" The Sacred Scriptures inform us that there are two comings of the Son of God: the one when He assumed human flesh for our salvation in the womb of a virgin; the other when He shall come at the end of the world to judge all mankind. This latter coming is called in Scripture the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord, says the Apostle, shall come, as a thief in the night; and our Lord Himself says: Of that day and hour no one knoweth.
"To Judge the Living and the Dead" In proof of the (last) judgment it is enough to adduce the authority of the Apostle: We must all appear before the judgmentseat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil. There are numerous passages of Sacred Scripture which the pastor will find in various places and which not only establish the truth of the dogma, but also place it in vivid colours before the eyes of the faithful. And if, from the beginning of the world that day of the Lord, on which He was clothed with our flesh, was sighed for by all as the foundation of their hope of deliverance; so also, after the death and Ascension of the Son of God, we should make that other day of the Lord the object of our most earnest desires, looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God.'
Two Judgments In explaining this subject the pastor should distinguish two different occasions on which everyone must appear in the presence of the Lord to render an account of all his thoughts, words and actions, and to receive immediate sentence from his Judge.
The first takes place when each one of us departs this life; for then he is instantly placed before the judgmentseat of God, where all that he has ever done or spoken or thought during life shall be subjected to the most rigid scrutiny. This is called the particular judgment.
The second occurs when on the same day and in the same place all men shall stand together before the tribunal of their Judge, that in the presence and hearing of all human beings of all times each may know his final doom and sentence. The announcement of this judgment will constitute no small part of the pain and punishment of the wicked; whereas the good and just will derive great reward and consolation from the fact that it will then appear what each one was in life. This is called the general judgment.
As a Catholic grade school student at the time, I knew that Jesus would return in judgment over the whole world at the end of time. I can't specifically tell you jhow I knew it, but I knew it. The Baltimore Catechism does not specifically mention a Second Coming, but it does mention the final, General Judgment at the end of time. So the truth is there, even if the words are not.
I find it difficult to believe that Rev. Graham would not have been aware of this. I find it even harder to believe that Senator Kennedy would not have known.
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 04:29 am |
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| Of course Kennedy might possibly have been asking the question knowing what his church believes but wondering what Billy Graham would say - lawyers and politicians are famous, or sometimes infamous, for asking questions in that manner. I had always gotten the impression that most Catholics believe in the Second Coming of Jesus. If anybody in any denomination does not believe that, I am afraid that someday, when the Lord does return, they will find themselves greatly surprised!
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 07:30 pm |
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| Of course we believe it and cite it in the creed. I wasn't questioning that, and Billy Graham acknowledged it. Generally what Protestants mean in this kind of context, by "talking about" some doctrine, is preaching about it, and extended teaching, such as in a Bible study. And that is a legitimate criticism. As I noted, Protestants don't do much of that, either. But we all believe in the doctrine. It's not a dividing point. There are more than enough of those! Last edited on Tue Feb 5th, 2008 07:31 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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