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Good Ministry?
 Moderated by: Rob, Marcus, LauraN., Jim Anderson, Dave Armstrong  

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Candlemass
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 Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 04:14 pm

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvrzDsM4QfY



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mrsbmoo
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 Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 04:30 pm

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I looked at part of the Utube video and checked out the web site. It seems to be standard evangelical doctrine- get saved, discredit evolution, go witnessing door to door and in small groups. It comes across like a marketing program for the gospel which kind if puts me off but maybe that is just my personal bias. I saw that, you purchasing lots of things friom the web site, is part of the program.  Did I not dig deep enough, was there something else about it you were thinking of?



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Candlemass
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 Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 04:59 pm

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No, I was just wondering what folk here thought of their methodology, and would this be the way a Catholic would go about sharing their faith or preaching "The Gospel."



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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 09:12 pm

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It's not too bad at all, from a Catholic perspective. C.S. Lewis wrote about how Christianity presupposes that men are sinners, and that they are aware of this themselves. Obviously, to repent, one has to know that they have done something wrong and to be willing to change things and do better. And the Law helps us do that.

The Catholic goes on from this to emphasize sacraments, Church authority, Tradition, and community. So this stuff isn't "bad"; it is (like so much of Protestantism) incomplete or "skeletal."

I like this, insofar as it seeks to connect moral standards to the presentation of the gospel. That is a welcome approach today, when such considerations are being deliberately underemphasized in many Protestant circles.



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Free2Think
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 Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 10:52 pm

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Dave your comment made me think of Romans 7:7-25--Parts quoted here:

What then shall we say?  That the law is sin?  By no means!  Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin....Did that which is good, then, bring death to me?  By no means!  It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure...I do not understand my own actions.  For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.  Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.  For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is in my flesh.  I can will what is right, but I cannot do it...Wretched man that I am!  Who will deliver me from this body of death?  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 


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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 06:39 pm

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Yes, that's good. Even Paul was aware of his sinfulness, and elsewhere called himself the "chief" of sinners (1 Tim 1:15).

Last edited on Wed Feb 6th, 2008 06:41 pm by Dave Armstrong



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tedjenczewski
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 Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 12:15 am

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Romans 7:7-31 gets me thinking about TULIP and total depravity of man. This chapter has always troubled me, especially v18 "For I know nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh." Is Paul saying he can do no good even with the assistance of grace?



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David W. Emery
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 Posted: Sun Feb 10th, 2008 01:18 am

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Here is what the Navarre Bible Commentary has to say about the passage:
    [Romans 7:]14–25. As can be seen from the use of the present tense, the “I” in vv. 14–25 is no longer Paul before his conversion, but rather after it: and it also stands for all mankind redeemed by Christ’s grace. Here we have a vivid description of the interior struggle which everyone experiences, Christians included. These words are in line with something we are all well aware of: in our bodies there is a “law,” an inclination, which fights against the law of our spirit (cf. v. 23), that is, against the spiritual good which God’s grace causes us to desire. The very expression “the law of sin which dwells in my members” emphasizes how strenuously our senses, appetites and passions try to reject the dictates of the spirit; however, the spirit can gain the upper hand. The Church’s teaching is that Baptism does not take away a person’s inclination to sin (fomes peccati), concupiscence: he or she still experiences a strong desire for earthly or sensual pleasure. “Since it [concupiscence] is left to provide a trial, it has no power to injure those who do not consent and who, by the grace of Christ Jesus, manfully resist” (Council of Trent, De peccato originali, can. 5).

    The Jews were able to keep the Law of Moses only through the help of divine grace granted them in anticipation of the merits of Christ. Without grace they were like slaves, “sold under sin” (v. 14). After Christ, a person who rejects the Redemption is in a similar position, for “in the state of corrupt nature man needs grace to heal his nature and enable him to avoid sin entirely. In this present life this healing is brought about in his mind [the spiritual part of man]: the carnal appetite is not completely healed. Hence the Apostle (Rom 7:25) says of the person healed by grace, ‘I serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.’ In this state a person can avoid mortal sin […] but he cannot avoid all venial sin, due to the corruption of his sensual appetite” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa theologiae, I-II, q. 109, a. 8).

    Hence our need for God’s help if we are to persevere in virtue; hence also our need to make a genuine personal effort to be faithful. The St. Pius V Catechism [Catechism of the Council of Trent], when dealing with the fact that even after Baptism man is subject to various disabilities, including concupiscence, explains that God has willed that death and suffering, which originate in sin, remain part of our lot, thereby enabling us to attain mystical and real union with Christ, who chose to undergo suffering and death; and, likewise, we still have concupiscence, and experience bodily weakness, etc. “that in them we may have the seed and material of virtue from which we shall hereafter receive a more abundant harvest of glory and more ample rewards” (II, 2, 48).
As you can see, no mention is made of total depravity or predestination. Catholic theology does just fine without Calvin in interpreting the bible.

David


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