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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 961 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 10:35 pm |
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It's probable that there aren't enough converts to make that much of a difference, but reading the thread about the "God-like" status (???) of Scott Hahn and pondering how converts were affecting the Lutheran Church when I was in that church, I began to wonder if converts were having any effect in the Catholic Church.
In the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, the old-timers did not like converts coming in from those fundie churches and trying to do away with the liturgy and hymns and organ, preferring creative liturgy, praise choruses, and rock n roll instruments, etc... I was a part of those "old timers." I'd left rock n roll churches because I learned to love liturgy and hymns. Endlessly repeated praise choruses with its concomitant emotional manipulation were making me NUTS! All the emotionalism seemed too man-centered to me. I loved that the focus in the Lutheran Church was on Jesus and on the altar.
So, what I think I'm hearing about the Catholic Church is that the converts coming in are like those "old timer" Lutherans and are perhaps perceived as trying to drag the Church back into the Dark Ages. Are there enough converts to even make a difference???
Maybe I'm a tad paranoid: Our wonderful pastor is leaving in mid-April. Consequently, the two parishes in town are sort of 'combining.' Our pastor kept things very kosher. The other, much bigger, parish is more 'progressive.' Have I just been unusually blessed by coming into the CC in an orthodox parish and that the CC 'out there' is actually more like the 'evangelical' church I left a long time ago?
One of the concepts I love about the CC is the one-ness of it. It shouldn't be changing at one pastor's whim, but sometimes it seems like it does.
I dunno. I guess I'm a little at sea right now.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 675 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 11:19 pm |
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Well, ma'am, I understand how you feel. Only thing I could suggest is what I would consider doing in your place if it was me. One idea that comes to mind is writing to your Bishop and expressing the feelings you have expressed here with a copy to the Pastor of the remaining church. If any of your fellow church members feel the same, I would encourgage them to write as well. Hopefully this might open up some dialogue and possibilities. I have known of some churches, Catholic as well as of other denominations, where they have either the Pastor of one church have services at both churches, sometimes even three or more services or where they might have the sort of service you might prefer at the same church and have the "contemporary service" at another hour. If the Bishop and/or Pastor gives you any flack, I would respectfully yet firmly suggest that I did not join the church to become a "git down boogie arm waving verse repeater" and, if need be, go over their heads to the Archbishop and, if need be, thence up to the Pope (I always try to be kind and polite, however, there are also times when I will "walk in where angels fear to tread" - maybe it's my failing as a Christian, Lord have mercy upon me :?). I was aware, back in the 1980s, that some people in our local Diocese were not happy with the Bishop (since retired) and they DID go all the way to the Pope! Apparently the Vatican somehow helped "work things out".
I realize that the Catholic Church, and other denominations, are supposed to have a certain "one-ness" with everybody "on the same page of music", so to speak, however, I think that we are going to have to wait for heaven for that to happen. There are so many different perspectives and personalities and so many influences - including the influence of the forces of evil although I am not saying that the other church is evil, ha, ha! By the way, if it is any consolation, I was earlier reading an email from my sister, who is still a member of the independent Christian Church in which we were raised. She was griping that some people want to take their church off in a pentecostal direction. I really feel that the pentecostals need to go form their own denomination or join a pentecostal denomination. Anyway, again, if it was me, I would attempt to make my concerns known to the hierarchy and go from there. Maybe something can be worked out. Meanwhile, let's pray about it! May God bless you dear lady!
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 11:41 pm |
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There are all sorts of currents going on in the Church. I have often perceived a bit of a rift between cradle Catholics and converts: a bit like a sibling rivalry type of thing. I run across it not infrequently, in my work. Converts are often perceived as insufficiently Catholic or bringing undesirable elements into the Church from their past. Sometimes this is indeed true (but a lot of the time it is an overblown criticism). I've written about it. Many of the ones who do this are insufficiently converted, and still have a mindset like a Protestant (particularly, private judgment). And sometimes they get excessive and become a so-called "traditionalist."
Converts, for their part, often think that cradle Catholics are lacking in their understanding of the Bible or otherwise ill-equipped to understand or defend their faith. As converts we were more or less forced to do some apologetics, coming in, to the degree that we had Protestant friends and acquaintances.
I think it is a matter of "both/and." I find that cradle Catholics who are committed Catholics have a significantly better sense of the liturgical calendar, the Mass, the supreme importance of the sacraments, and various devotional practices. I see this as a deficiency in myself, because it is better to have grown up with it. That was how it was "designed," so to speak. We former Protestants were late learners. Both classes complement the other and can help the other class have a better, more balanced Catholic life.
There is a certain latitude in worship, as long as the rubrics are followed. There is such a thing as a charismatic Mass. I have no problem with that, because the ones I have been to were quite reverent. I thought they sung better and with more enthusiasm than we do at my liturgically traditional parish (that offers Latin Mass), and I think that is good. It is supposed to be with feeling and emotion, within proper bounds. The charismatic movement has been sanctioned at the highest levels of the Church. I have papers about that. It's not condemned at all. Only certain excesses are condemned.
Protestant converts might prefer (at least at first) a charismatic Mass as a sort of transitional worship, because it has more outward similarities to many forms of Protestant worship.
I think the more important and influential dynamic, regarding what you refer to, is the orthodox vs. liberal / dissident / modernist divide. Converts are usually orthodox, so they come down on that side. The liberals are trying to change things in a bad way.
There are these conflicts in the Church at the "ground level," but you mustn't let it bother you too much. The Church has sinners and people who fall short in various ways. I'm a Catholic because it is the fullness of Christian, apostolic, biblical truth, not because I was enthralled and extremely impressed with every Catholic I met (which is, after all, a man-centered approach). God promised to protect the Church's doctrines from error. He never promised that individual Catholics would be either sin-free or folly-free.
Last edited on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 11:45 pm by Dave Armstrong
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Prayerie Pal
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| Joined: | Sat Mar 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
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| First Name: | susie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian,Methodist, Charismatic Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and now Truly Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 12:40 am |
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God promised to protect the Church's doctrines from error. He never promised that individual Catholics would be either sin-free or folly-free.
Well said, Dave. 
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God gave us memory so we could have roses in winter.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 01:55 am |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: He never promised that individual Catholics would be either sin-free or folly-free.
And I might add that that statement applies to every individual Catholic, from the pope on down.
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Kayla
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| Joined: | Mon Jul 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | Emmitsburg, Maryland USA |
| Posts: | 369 |
| First Name: | Kayla | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Atheist, kind-of Mormon, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 03:56 am |
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This is actually something I've been hit with by some of my more 'progressive' professors. Last semester, my theology professor gave our class an article to read which stated how converts "try to out-Catholic the cradle Catholics" and seem to "doubt the strength of the Church by being so defensive of Her". The article made a few good points about some of the general differences between converts and cradle Catholics, but it did so in a very offensive way. The author was most certainly a cradle Catholic who was offended in some way or another by the fervor of new converts. Perhaps he had a sour experience with one.
At any rate, I was a bit upset that she had us reading this article and I shared my opinion with the class. I was the only convert. It made for some interesting discussion.
Then, this semester, I was mocked in front of my entire history class for being an overly zealous convert. My history professor was attempting to teach us about how the Catholic Church kept changing her position on salvation during the Protestant and Catholic reformation. He brought in a document that supposedly contradicted what the Church teaches (which it didn't). For most of the class I remained silent, listening to one of my friends, a cradle Catholic by the way, argue against him. It was only near the very end of class that I even raised my hand and said anything. But apparentally I hit the last straw for my professor, and he went off on me (personally, I think it was because I made the comment which made it completely obvious he was wrong). He said to me, in front of the entire class, that in his experience converts are overly zealous in defending the Church and can't seem to help but defend the Church to an extreme point.
Nevermind the fact that the girl next to me, the cradle Catholic, had been the most defensive during the entire class.
At any rate, I've ran into this whole issue quite a bit. Even with my friends, sometimes.
I think there is some "difference", though. As a convert (and just speaking for myself here), I know what it's like not to have the Church and the Truth. So, in a way, I can appreciate it all the more. It's precious to me. Because I know what life is like without it. And I also think, to a certain extent, converts tend to "own their faith" more than some cradle-Catholics (not all!). We had to make this decision completely on our own, and often times it was a hard decision to make.
But, to be completely honest, I've seen crade-Catholics who have a faith and fervor that surpasses many converts.
I guess I would just say that it seems to me, at least from this convert's point of view, that some (and definitely not a majority or all) cradle-Catholics are threatened by the response converts have to the faith. It makes them (the few cradle-Catholics) have to re-examine their own faith and why it is they believe what they believe and if their response is what it should be.
Honestly though, I don't think that the more "traditional movement" that seems to be occuring is completely attributed to converts. I think it's a hunger for the Truth and for orthodoxy within both converts and crade Catholics. I see it here on my campus and in the seminary. There's this hunger for Truth that has been lacking in generations past. I really think there are some great things to come for the Church in times to come.
____________________
I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:06 am |
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It has been my experience that there is definately some tension of the kind described by Kayla above between some "knowlegable" cradle Catholics and "knowlegeable" converts to Catholicism.
Ultimately, in my experience, this tension can be traced to whether one is loyal to the Magisterium or whether one is loyal to the "spirit of Vatican II" whoever that is.
I find that vociferous (loud) Catholics often feel the need to defend their own position AS the position of the church, yet many of these notable converts will often offer up "I stand to be corrected by the Church"
Regards Doc
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NB: 'DrDave' is a nickname from college not and indication of academic achievement.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:34 am |
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I don't think it's so much cradle vs. convert as "newbie" vs. "old hand".
Many native born citizens resent immigrants, legal or not.
Many older students ridicule younger students.
Older employees are often threatened by "whippersnappers".
Hillary Clinton is having a problem with Barak Obama, and John McCain can't get Mike Huckabee to shut up.
"Old money" resents "new money".
And some cradle Catholics feel threatened by converts.
In the animal kingdom, the old lion fights off the young lions until he can't fight any more.
This is the way of the world. We all resist change. Converts often come into the faith wondering why it isn't more like what they grew up with, and cradle Catholics wonder why they can't just accept things the way they are.
I think converts bring a new vitality into the Church. Ideally they want new programs, stronger youth ministry, better music, better homilies, stronger liturgies, and they're willing to stand up and do it, and not just sit in the back and complain. Idally they want fidelity to the Church, and that shakes up the "cafeteria Catholic" who has been content being a Sunday morning Catholic. And that's a good thing.
But sometimes they want to weaken the liturgy and stretch the theology and bring in Protestant music with rock bands or traditional Protestant hymns that are weak on Catholic theology, and that hurts the whole Church. Sometimes they want hellfire and brimstone, and not love and social justice. Or they continue to demand that everything be justified according to scripture, and that weakens the authority of the Church.
But overall, I think the new blood revitalizes the Church. The enthusiasm of a new Catholic can revitalize the rest of us who have been lax in the practice of our faith. In my parish, close to half of those involved in ministry are converts. They know and understand their faith (but I have to say that since I taught 'em!) and they carry an excitement that few "cradle Catholics" share (but again, I'm prejudiced). We have very few converts who are not in at least one ministry, so they are not only giving an example to those in the pews, but training the next generation of cradle Catholics to carry enthusiasm for their faith.
Being a Catholic is a good thing, but being a Catholic who knows what it's like to be something else is even better because you guys can appreciate the difference. It's like a refugee from Vietnam or another repressive regime who has a greater appreciation for America than the rest of us. I remember a guy from Russia who ran a red light near my house and got into a wreck, and he just knew he was going to be arrested and cuffed and hauled off to jail. He actually cried when the cop just gave him a ticket, and his boss showed up and didn't fire him on the spot but was worried that he might have been hurt. The boss insisted that he go to the hospital and be checked out at company expense, and this poor guy was flabbergasted.
It made me appreciate America a little more. And in the same way, converts make me appreciate my faith, not just a little bit more but a whole lot more.
So any converts who don't feel comfortable are welcomed in my parish. We love 'em!
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 961 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 05:55 am |
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Thank you for all your replies.
Marshall, I'm such a newbie, I don't think I could do that - at least not yet. And hopefully, I won't need to. I hope and pray that my parish will stay closer to what it's been since I've been there (gee a whole 16 months!). If need be, I'll drive to where it's kosher as I can't see myself pulling off the David and Goliath thing. "Gee, maybe Goliath has a point," I'd find myself saying.
Dave and Rick, your description of still-Protestant converts amazes me! As difficult as it is for almost everyone I've ever heard of to make that change from the Protestant world to the Catholic, it's unreal that they'd drag any Reformed baggage along with them. If there were anything Protestant and also decidedly non-Catholic that I could have hung onto in truth, I wouldn't be where I am. Do these Protestant-Catholics convert for reasons like marriage or some other non-doctrinal reason? I'm open-mouthed on that one.
Kayla, what a story.... Well, good for you! Tried by fire and tougher for it, I'm sure. I hope your surmising about a general search for truth is, indeed, out there.
Meanwhile, I'm really excited about my faith, but don't want to be perceived as a meddling newbie. I'm trying to understand and comprehend and put into practice in my life all the depth of the Catholic faith. But some of what goes on does dismay me, and this big change that's surely coming has me quaking a bit - and the gal I'm sponsoring even more so! Well, we'll ride this out together and see how things fall. I'll keep my eyes focused on the Eucharist as that will never change and that's the #1 reason (of many) I am now a Catholic.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 220 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 12:18 pm |
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Kayla--I admire your self-control. Catholic bashing is clearly still one of the few "judgemental" activities that are permitted in the college classroom.
Jill--I would feel the same as you do about going to the Bishop, etc, but maybe your situation will be better than you imagine. It's likely some other members of your present congregation are going to make a polite statement to the new pastor about liking things done in a traditional way. He will probably try to accommodate them (and you) to some extent. One way to have influence in the new situation is to volunteer for something having to do with the liturgy, like the music.
I can vouch for the fact that most music directors or leaders in a parish are always happy to get some new singers involved, especially if they can demonstrate that they are reliable and capable of teamwork. I'll bet that if the hymns are important to you, you can sing well enough to help (or know someone who can!)
Confidence can be an issue, and all I can say is that five years ago I never would have believed that what we did this past week was possible. I went from being a Protestant English teacher who could barely find her place in the missalette to a Catholic 2nd grade homeroom teacher. Tuesday our class read the 1st lesson & psalm & the petitions and brought up the gifts to the altar. I chose the readings & hymns from the children's lectionary book (the music teacher usually helps but she was out of town). The principal and I walked the kids through their assigned parts and I helped them practice the songs. Friday I made a paper banner with the psalm response on it. Tuesday I put up the banner in front of the altar and "cantored" the hymns at the mike because the choir hadn't had a chance to prepare.
I hope that doesn't seem like I am boasting. It's just that I realized afterward that I would have been too scared to do all that a very short time ago. The liturgy has become a source of grace to me and I am comfortable with it now. Banners and mikes are not something I would choose or prefer in the mass, but they are a fact of life at this parish and school. By participating fully I get to make an offering (and hopefully a difference) in the mass (which is our most important "lesson" of the week).
I have to get ready for school now -- but I hope this has been helpful.
Love to all,
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Annie
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| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 01:04 pm |
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I have noticed that cradle Catholics are generally a whole lot nicer people than converts. i think that is a result of the rebellion that heretics get into. they just can't shake that fighting attitude.
I think the Church will have to be vigilant that She doesn't become Protestantized. I already see a problem with EWTN since Mother has become incapacitated. There is a heavy weighting of programming run by and for Protestant converts and I sometimes hear an attitude that sounds like people wanting to Protestantize things. And then, as someone else has mentioned, there are those who think by reading the Catechism thoroughly they become more knowledgeable and somehow more Catholic than the cradle Catholics.
Catholicism is a lot like Judaism in the sense that there is a cultural component that most converts will never "get." this has concerned me in my own conversion.
Both of the paragraphs mentioned above relate to some of the threads on this forum from people who don't understand why and liturgical church has rules for doing things that go beyond the instructions in the catechism. The reasons have to do with a well-thought out and hard-won tradition after centuries of trying things that just didn't work because of the concupiscence of people.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 01:52 pm |
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JillD wrote:
One of the concepts I love about the CC is the one-ness of it. It shouldn't be changing at one pastor's whim, but sometimes it seems like it does.
Think how much one-ness went away with the Mass of Pope John XXIII, or whatever you want to call it. The detailed rubrics of the Mass allowed for almost no variation. The variation lay in whether it was to be a high or low Mass. The detail in the language of the liturgy also was designed to teach and put people outside the space-time continuum to Calvary. And all this was done without hand-waving and guitars. What a different culture we are now. The majority want to be entertained. When church becomes just another Sunday entertainment option people will leave the church in droves which is exactly what has happened over the last few decades.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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heardclarke
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 02:23 pm |
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Dear Annie,
I know what you mean about "attitude"--it was the first thing I noticed when I came here to SPX school. The feeling that there was a loving family here was powerfully attractive to me. The senior faculty and the principal were very kind, patient and nurturing in a way that few Protestants I'd ever met before had been.
This reminded me of other Catholics who'd "been there" for me over the years, and I realizd that there was something they had, or something they were, that was unique. I had to have that.
Have I tried to "change" this community? I have to admit that there is one way that I have tried to change it. I had a sense that our Episcopal church had actually inherited everything about it that was good from the Catholic Church. This included music and other fine arts traditions as well as the Montessori faith formation classes I'd learned about in that church. I wanted to bring those gifts back to my Catholic family. They were not evident in this particular school at that time but my friends here let me know that they wished they were. I do not think that bringing these things back into a community where they rightfully belonged was wrong.....in fact, I believe that was one reason I was brought into the Church.
I must quickly note, however, that whatever gifts I may have brought with me have been completely swallowed up in those which I have received. They are incalculable!
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Prayerie Pal
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| Joined: | Sat Mar 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
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| First Name: | susie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian,Methodist, Charismatic Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, and now Truly Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 02:44 pm |
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I am thankful that I've never had to come up against a "struggle" between cradle Catholics and me being a "newbie" convert. Every single cradle Catholic I know has been more than happy that I'm "back Home." Omaha is (I've heard as much as 55% Catholic) so it's a great town, although if I had my druthers, I'd be in the Lincoln diocese with Bishop Bruskewitz! Please pray for Omaha and our new archbishop, whoever he'll be, that progressive change (as in Trad and orthodox) will continue! We've been very blessed by archbishop Curtiss.... there's one in the 'wings' that isn't fond of Fr. Corapi!! And wants KVSS, our Catholic radio station, to stop having him on the air!! OH MY!! This bishop's been known to say something to the effect of "Fr. Corapi is doing too much damage to the Church!" Oh, God, help us! JMJ!!
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heardclarke
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 02:59 pm |
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| Just remember, Jesus promised, "On this Rock I will build my Church, andthe gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." The truth will prevail.
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Free
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 03:34 pm |
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Jill, I've had kind of the opposite experience in my first year as a Catholic convert. Our parish seems stuck in "progressiveness" which is outside what I see and hear on EWTN, and even what people in this forum say about their parishes. Our newer bishop is gradually making inroads in how things are done, yet not fast enough for me.
An example: the bishop said we were to kneel again in church, yet our priest, who oversees our church and a church in a neighboring town, told us that our church would not begin kneeling until kneelers were bought for the other church, and that has not yet happened. Also, the priest's homilies mention Buddha, and other non-Christians more often than I like to hear, especially having come out of a past that included Buddhist and Hindu beliefs. We were told by the bishop to start using precious metal at the altar, and so we gave up crockery and now have clear glass wine glasses. We sing songs from the 1960's - 1980's for the most part, and even though the theology is orthodox, the insipid melodies drive me crazy at times. After the bishop said the priests were to go back to the ritual handwashing by a certain date, our priest waited until the deadline, and then forgot to incorporate it into the mass several times during his learning curve. Rarely (maybe three times in the past year) do we say the wonderful words of "I confess to God, and you my brothers and sisters..." How I'd love to confess my sins with those words every Sunday!
I have to pause here and say that I actually like this priest. He has an engaging personality, and he is remarkably discerning in the confessional (which is actually an open room with two easy chairs). What I find objectionable is his attitude that skates close to rebellion towards the bishop.
We do not have a crucifix in the sanctuary. When the bishop said that each church must have one in the altar area, one of our parishoners fashioned an older statue of the risen Christ onto a plain cross. When I mentioned to the woman who sponsored me that I liked the risen Christ statue, but I wished we had a crucifix, she told me that what we had IS a crucifix. Maybe she's right, but I'll betcha that if we took a survey on what both Catholics and Protestants term a crucifix, it would not look like what we have!
My point, though, is this: I was so hungry to get the consecrated bread and wine, that I was willing to ignore all of this non-orthodox practice. Even now, although I hope and pray that the bishop will continue undoing all that was put into place under his predecessor, I eagerly go to receive the Body and Blood of our Savior. I'm thankful that the priest's homilies are no more than five minutes; I'm thankful when we occasionally sing a robust hymn; I'm thankful that we use an organ and not guitars, as they did in the past; I'm thankful for the risen Christ "crucifix", because it's better than having no cross displayed at all, as was the case in the non-denominational church I came out of. And I'm thankful that we have a priest to consecrate and confect the bread and wine, particularly when I hear on EWTN about places that rarely have a visiting priest.
The two churches closest to me are the ones this particular priest oversees. Two churches north of me at distances of 10 and 15 miles are very much the same, I've found, as is the church 10 miles south. A church in our county about 45 minutes away is wonderfully orthodox, and when I visited the priest gave a meaty 15-minute homily, but 45 minutes is too far for me to become a part of that parish, plus the secondary roads are hazardous for driving in the winter.
So for now I'm settling into the parish in my town, and praying for my priest and for my bishop.
I pray for you too, sister Jill!
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:20 pm |
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Free, you are right, you have to make do with what you have, the onus is on the priest and if you make it known you would like something more faithful to the teachings of the Church your priest will at least know that somebody noticed what is going on and cares. Your priest sounds like the cousin of my former "Fr. Funnypriest."  The illicitness of the Masses makes me gag. :X And you are right about wilful disobedience. It truly puts a priest's soul in jeopardy.  Every day I say the chaplet of St. Michael for our priests and the prayer for priests. And I pray for them at Adoration every month too.:?
My home parish isn't very good but I drive to a really good one when I feel up to it and the priests there welcome me. I help both parishes financially and in whatever way I can which is usually just prayer and an occasional encouraging card or email to the priests.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 220 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:35 pm |
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I am sorry it is so rough out there. I guess some of those priests have "drunk the Kool-Aid" along with so many others of a certain generation. In other words they bought into the "Vatican II means we can change everything and do what we want" mentality. Maybe they are there to test the rest of us and strengthen us in the virtue of charity!
One reason some of the newer converts are inclined to agitate is that we have seen the fruit that a lax attitude will eventually produce. Anybody who came in from the Episcopal church can tell you all about it.
That's my 2 cents worth. I am now getting off my soapbox for the rest of the day. Have a good day everyone!
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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Connie
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| Joined: | Fri Jun 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 71 |
| First Name: | Connie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic Convert from Presbyterian, then Episcopalian |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:58 pm |
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I hear ya Jill! But I don't think it has anything to do with "converts" per say, than just the simple fact this is America, and everything is influenced by our culture, even Churches, even Priests, sadly. As the Pope has said, what's the phrase, Secularism is creeping in. This, I believe is it in a nutshell. You were very lucky to be in a more Orthodox Church, (this is what I like too) with an Orthodox Priest. But don't assume things will be too "progressive", with the churches combining. You might be surprised! Wait and see! pray, and also offer your input. Not every convert or paritioner is in favor of the "new way". I'm not! Give me the smells and bells, and proper liturgy!!!
Our church is very progressive too, even though it's in an old old building. But I choose to stick it out, and BE one of the ones who stand up in favor of truly old Orthodox Catholic ways and teachings, (in favor of the Latin rite too). I want to remain true to the essence of the Faith and the Church in Rome. I feel more churches need folks like us to offer our opinion of how we DON'T want the new progressive movement to take hold.
Blessings
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~Connie~
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 961 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 05:05 pm |
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heardclarke wrote: One reason some of the newer converts are inclined to agitate is that we have seen the fruit that a lax attitude will eventually produce. Anybody who came in from the Episcopal church can tell you all about it.
Amen! That is it EXACTLY! Perhaps I'm paranoid about 'minor' alterations to the way it's supposed to be done, but minor changes get bigger and bigger and soon they look like the 'situation' (making nice here...) that Jane (Free) describes in her church. This is how I felt in the Lutheran church. I joined because of the orthodoxy and the liturgy, but "Baptimethocostals" were joining and trying to change everything, important things! And now the Lutheran Church is in a big mess! Almost as big a mess as the Episcopal Church.
So, I will repeat, "The gates of hell will not prevail; the gates of hell will not prevail..."
And, like Jane, whose attitude is admirable, I will try to focus on those things for which I can be thankful.
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 05:07 pm |
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Really interesting posts here in this thread.
Kayla, that “perfesser” sounds like a jerk – but not unlike the prejudiced at most schools.
Jane, what a nightmare. Ugh!!! Thank God you have a good bishop. This will make all the difference.
As a lifelong Catholic, my general impression of converts is like that of new teenage drivers. They've read the rule book and have the keys, now they think they are experts - the comic strip "Zits" illustrates this hilariously.
The other aspect in play is the zeal that comes with a real conversion that pushes an "activeness" not seen in your typical been-there-done-that [yawn] cradle Catholic. This is where the "new blood" is re-invigorating for the fellow Catholic and can ignite new enthusiasm.
Also the convert enters with 'new eyes' and easily picks out the things missing that a distracted old-timer already noticed and gave up on. On the other hand, as in the case with a minority of converts on EWTN, they over-emphasize what they think is important from their own experience and don’t see [yet] a larger picture.
On the other hand, the old-timer is steeped in Catholicism, sees context, perspective and has long experience. We’ve inherited a ‘second nature’. We do things without thinking [like the time I genuflected entering a pew in a Baptist Church or , oh yea, at a Funeral home with pews]. We know when something doesn't sound right [isn't that heresy?] even if we have to go look it up [not saying converts can't have this sense too]. Then like looking at the new guy on the block, some old-timers expect a certain respect and restraint by the new 'interlopers' until everybody gets used to everybody. There is room for resentment on both sides.
Ultimately, all the | | |
