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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 10:05 pm |
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Marshall, thanks for explaining all that. I started and then backed away. You refer to short-term mission trips and projects that are open to Southern Baptists now. I had paid my advance fees and was signed on to join a week-long medical/mission team headed for Ecuador but gave that up upon entering the Catholic Church since the shock of my decision was fresh then.
The Southern Baptist short-term mission teams won much praise for their effective delivery of services after Katrina. While I was in college, several friends devoted their summers to work as Baptist summer missionaries.
As Marshall said, however, we most often used the term to refer to persons who devoted their careers to serving in a particular area or country. My in-laws were missionaries in West Africa. Many other Baptist foreign missionaries have been guests in my home. They stayed on the field for four years at a time before getting leave to return to America for a year, then returned for another four-year term. New missionaries were not even given a vote at field meetings until they had been serving there at least a full year. It was very strange to my ears to hear priests called missionaries who were away only a few days or weeks at a time and who never left the country.
It's all about terminology. I know now from first-hand observation that the priests who go out on these very brief Catholic-style missions absolutely exhaust themselves and then drive to the next place and do it all over again. See the thread in the Spiritual Growth and Union with God forum called "Silent Retreat" for an example. The priest who conducted that mission is heroic in my eyes. I watched the strength drain out of him as he gave himself up for us in that mission.
BeckyLast edited on Sat Apr 19th, 2008 01:42 am by Intercessor
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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cyanheaven
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 12:44 am |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Here is a cute observation from Catholic writer Jeffery Dennis, specifically about the Blessed Virgin Mary, concerning how Catholics and Protestants define or understand theological terms and phrases differently:
Protestants, particularly those in evangelical denominations . . . have been raised to regard any sort of veneration as idolatry . . . Mary is mentioned in Protestant churches only during Christmastime, in reference to the manger of Bethlehem, and perhaps occasionally at Easter . . . she has no special role to play in the Christian story . . . Many of the dogmas of the Catholic Church, while profound and vigorous spiritual truths, are couched in technical theological language that sounds quite bizarre to Protestant ears. Here is what your Protestant friend may be hearing when you try to explain the Blessed Virgin the way she was explained to you:
The Catholic says: Mary is ever-virgin.
The Protestant hears: Mary is a pagan earth-goddess. (The non-Catholic remembers the vestal virgins of Rome.)
The Catholic says: Mary was conceived without sin.
The Protestant hears: Mary is the equal of Jesus. (He remembers that Jesus was sinless.)
The Catholic says: Mary was assumed into heaven.
The Protestant hears: Mary is the equal of Jesus. (He remembers that Jesus ascended into heaven.)
The Catholic says: Mary is Co-Redemptrix.
The Protestant hears: We don't feel that Jesus is adequate for salvation.
The Catholic says: Mary is our intercessor.
The Protestant hears: We don't believe that Jesus can do it all.
The Catholic says: Mary is the Mother of God.
The Protestant hears: Mary gave birth to God the Father. (He uses the word "God" to refer only to God the Father.)
The Catholic says: Mary is the Queen of Heaven.
The Protestant hears: Mary is God's wife. (Since God is the King of Heaven, Mary must be His wife.)
These interpretations may sound ludicrous and blasphemous, but they are exactly how your Protestant friend will interpret your words. Raised in a world without saints, he cannot conceive of spiritual contact with anyone but a god. You will leave him with the unfortunate misconception that Mary is the chief goddess of a Roman Catholic pantheon, and that Jesus has a minor, almost negligible, role in the Catholic plan of salvation . . .
("Introducing Mary to Protestants," in The Catholic Answer Book of Mary, edited by Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas, Huntington, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor, 2000; 88-91; quote from 88-89)
Ok i get every couplet theologically from both sides that you have presented. Every one except that is
The Catholic says: Mary is Co-Redemptrix.
The Protestant hears: We don't feel that Jesus is adequate for salvation.
If the Protestant "hearing" isn't true, which I honestly don't think it is, then what is meant when it is said that Mary is Co-Redemptrix. Obviously something is being said and honored about her part in the Salvation story, but other than that I do not understand.
Thanks in advance!
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cyanheaven
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 12:57 am |
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MichaelStEdmund wrote: Intercessor wrote:
P:
C: Recollection
What's the best choice for a Protestant counterpart? Meditation? Reflection?
Quiet time? Something else???
With an emphasis on reflecting on Scripture, we referred to it as "meditation," taking our cue from the KJV translation of Joshua 1:8 ...
"This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success."
Catholic says: Meditation
Protestant hears: Pagan (perhaps Buddist) practice
But isnt Meditation just part of Contemplation which includes the study and reading of Scripture as well as responding to it?
I dont know about you but the term Quiet Time if i were to use it today would be a time of study, both of Scripture as well as other beneiftal books in addition to Contemplation. Quite Time is essentially time regularly set aside for that.
Last edited on Sat Apr 19th, 2008 12:59 am by cyanheaven
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 01:03 am |
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Hi Callie,
These are two of my shorter, more introductory treatments of this subject:
A Biblical and Theological Primer on Mary Mediatrix
Human, Pauline, and Marian Distribution of Divine Graces: Not an "Unbiblical" Notion After All?
The term "co-redemptrix" is massively misunderstood. It isn't meant to imply that Mary is equal to God in terms of the redemption of men (or in any other way); only that she cooperated by God's plan in distribution of grace (and in the Incarnation).
The "co" word in Latin means one who cooperates or helps. It doesn't necessarily imply equality or "equal measure" at all. I always use the example in English of a health insurance "co-pay." Generally, we pay a lot less than the insurance company, not equally with them.
If you want to read more deeply on this topic, I have plenty more on my Blessed Virgin Mary page (second to last section). But it's important to read papers like the ones above first if you are not much acquainted with this line of thinking, because it is very counter-intuitive and indeed, foreign to one trained in Protestant theology and worldview.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 01:29 am |
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P: See gospel song below.
C: detachment
Detachment is a very important word in Catholic spirituality.
There's an old gospel song:
This world is not my home; I'm just a-passin' through.
My treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue.
The angels beckon me from Heaven's open door,
And I can't feel at home in this world anymore.
O Lord, You know I have no friend like you.
If Heaven's not my home, then Lord what will I do?
The angels beckon me from Heaven's open door,
And I can't feel at home in this world anymore.
There's also a thread on detachment in the Spiritual Growth and Union with God forum.Last edited on Sat Apr 19th, 2008 01:43 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 05:15 pm |
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cyanheaven wrote: Ok i get every couplet theologically from both sides that you have presented. Every one except that is
The Catholic says: Mary is Co-Redemptrix.
The Protestant hears: We don't feel that Jesus is adequate for salvation.
If the Protestant "hearing" isn't true, which I honestly don't think it is, then what is meant when it is said that Mary is Co-Redemptrix. Obviously something is being said and honored about her part in the Salvation story, but other than that I do not understand.
To bring it to its simplest point: The salvation story would not have happened without Mary. God, in his infinite wisdom, chose her to be the mother of the Redeemer, and so, in the plan of salvation God devised, Mary was a necessary part of redemption. If you prefer, you can call her "God's tool" because it was through her Jesus received his humanity, which in turn allowed for the redemption.
Mary did not accomplish redemption. Mary did not participate in redemption. But redemption as God chose to provide it could not have happened without her
Overly simple, no real theology, just a basic fact.
No Mary, no Jesus.
Know Mary, know Jesus.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 12:08 am |
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Maybe we shouldn't get all worked up over proper terminology after all. I've just come across a very interesting (and I'm putting mildly, and sportingly) article scribed by a Protestant writer which reminds more of an attempt to whitewash 500 years of theological rebellion, bloodshed, wars, lonstanding family feuds, never ending series of recriminations and the rest of whatever you'd like to throw in the bucket. Take a look at
"Positively Protestant: Lets uncover the original meaning of the word." It was written by David Neff and originally appeared on the Ancient Evangelical Future blogsite." and reproduced in today's CT History Newsletter. http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/newsletter/2008/apr17.html
In fairness to Neff, I think he went overboard with the tongue-in-cheek approach in an attempt to be fair-minded. Because when you read his concluding sentence, most of you, no doubt, will find yourselves (at least) smiling like cheshire cats. 
Or -- was he being dead serious? Maybe it's just a case of Calvinist "humor" on steroids. Or -- was this an evangelical scholar's impersonation of Rodney King ... oops, I'd better stop, I'll be giving away the punch line. 
Last edited on Sun Apr 20th, 2008 12:15 am by Steven Barrett
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For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
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cyanheaven
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 01:11 am |
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Thanks for the link to the blog, gave me things to think about, but i am left with a question.
Ok, I have figured out that the ecumenism section of vatican two is not the only section with that spirit in mind. Last night I read Dei verbum (the part about Tradition and Scripture).
"Sacred theology relies on the written Word of god, taken together with sacred Tradition, as on a permanent foundation. ... Therefore, the "study of the sacred page" should be the very soul of sacred theology."
And again... "Therefore, all clerics, particularly priests of Christ and others who, as deacons or catechists, are officially engaged in the ministry of ht Word, should immerse themselves in the Scriptures by constant sacred reading and dilligent study."
..And again... "Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."
Can't think of a Protestant that wouldn't accept 99 percent of what i just quoted... The only thing i really see different from what this text says compared to what Neff says in the following is addition of the concept of tradition. Honestly that brings to mind "filoque." Are we as a body all essentially separated by mere phrases?
"We need to recover the positive sense of protestant. It denotes things that we stand for: the authority of Scripture, salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.'
If the latest quote is correct then maybe Neff isnt too far off in saying that Catholics can be protestants too... in a sense.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 01:30 am |
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Switching to Catholic Terminology
Protestant: "be a stumbling block to" or "lead astray"
Catholic term: scandalize
Becky
Last edited on Sun Apr 20th, 2008 01:37 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 01:49 am |
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Dave Armstrong wrote:
The term "co-redemptrix" is massively misunderstood. It isn't meant to imply that Mary is equal to God in terms of the redemption of men (or in any other way); only that she cooperated by God's plan in distribution of grace (and in the Incarnation).
The "co" word in Latin means one who cooperates or helps. It doesn't necessarily imply equality or "equal measure" at all. I always use the example in English of a health insurance "co-pay." Generally, we pay a lot less than the insurance company, not equally with them.
If you want to read more deeply on this topic, I have plenty more on my Blessed Virgin Mary page (second to last section). But it's important to read papers like the ones above first if you are not much acquainted with this line of thinking, because it is very counter-intuitive and indeed, foreign to one trained in Protestant theology and worldview.
co-redemptrix
Thanks for tackling this term, Dave. I have a feeling there may never be agreement on what that prefix means since some folks have an agenda about what they want it to mean. In any case, new Catholics need to be familiar with it.
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 01:52 am |
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Switching to Catholic Terminology
As a Protestant, I said, "Love."
As a Catholic, more and more I am saying, "Charity."
I like using charity. Maybe it will change after the novelty wears off, but I am more conscious of what I'm actually saying when I use that word. Our society has so corrupted love. Somehow charity keeps me focused on the act, rather than on the feeling.
Last edited on Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:09 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 01:54 am |
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cyanheaven wrote: Can't think of a Protestant that wouldn't accept 99 percent of what i just quoted... The only thing i really see different from what this text says compared to what Neff says in the following is addition of the concept of tradition. Honestly that brings to mind "filoque." Are we as a body all essentially separated by mere phrases?
In many cases, yes. There are, of course, substantive disagreements, but much of it is indeed terminology.
I remember several years ago when I was working on a computer in a business near a Catholic church that was conducting "Renew". The secretary asked me what church I attended and I told her, and she launched into a diatribe against Catholics and "traditions of men". She ended by saying Jesus told us to believe, not "renew".
I told her Jesus didn't tell us to "revive" either, but I'd bet her church never hesitated to hold a "revival". I asked her if she'd ever referred to Strong's in a bible study and she said she had, so I said, "Isn't that one man's opinion? Isn't that a 'tradition'? Why is a 'tradition' started by Luther or Calvin so much more valuable than one started by someone taught by Peter or Paul? 'Tradition' is the writings of those who learned the faith from those taught by Jesus."
She was floored, and speechless. First of all, I don’t think she'd ever encountered a Catholic who was able and willing to respond to her anti-Catholic statements. And second, she had never equated the teachings of Luther and Calvin with "traditions of men" but that is exactly what they are.
It is often a dfference of terminology. Protestants have deliberately used terms different from the Catholic Church for the specific purpose of distancing themselves from us Catholics, and when they do use the same terms (works, for example) they redefine them from the Catholic meaning. That's why the Joint Declaration on Justification between Catholics and Lutherans (and later Methodists) was so important. It went beyond the jargon to examine the actual beliefs, and came to the conclusion that in all of the most imporant aspects, we are in complete agreement.
It is important that Catholics learn to "talk Protestant" nto so much so we can understand their beliefs, but rather so we can help them to understand ours.
Recently my pastor preached a homily on the importance of personal faith. He said we had to develop a personal relationship with Christ. Today, a different priest told our congregation that in the dreary days of faith when we're caught in a drizzle of doubt, we need an umbrella to help keep us dry until the sun comes out again, and the umbrella is the Church. He said a Christian without the Church will soon not be a Christian at all.
Can you imagine going to a doctor who decided that he didn't need to read medical text books, that he could get everything from a medical book written two thousand years ago, and ignore all of the studies and advances that have taken place since? And yet we can accept a pastor who is willing to believe "scripture alone"? I don't think so!
Our faith history literally dates back to Adam and Eve. The Deposit of Faith was handed by Jesus to the apostles, and it contained so much information that we are still struggling to understand it. How much less would we understand if we had to start over at every generation?
About as much as Rev. Leroy at the "Church of What's Happening Now!"
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:04 am |
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Switching to Catholic Terminology
Rick, thanks for covering tradition and Sacred Tradition.
Hope I typed that correctly.
Becky
Last edited on Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:05 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:14 am |
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Switching to Catholic Terminology
P: fleshly nature
C: concupiscence
I don't know whether these are an exact match theologically; but based on the contexts in which I have heard them used, they appear to be.
Becky
Last edited on Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:24 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:21 am |
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Switching to Catholic Terminology
Perhaps your experiences will differ on these two words.
As a Baptist, I heard repentance far more often.
As a Catholic, I hear contrition far more often.
Becky
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:37 am |
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Switching to Catholic Terminology
As a Protestant, I heard, "I'm sharing this information with you so that you can pray for her more intelligently."
As a Catholic, I was introduced to the term detraction.
from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, page 874:
Detraction
"Disclosure of another's faults and sins, without an objectively valid reason, to persons who did not know about them, thus causing unjust injury to that person's reputation" (2477)
Bet we could get lots of ideas on what constitutes "an objectively valid reason."
BeckyLast edited on Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:40 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:48 am |
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Intercessor wrote: [size=Bet we could get lots of ideas on what constitutes "an objectively valid reason."]
Cooperating with a police investigation comes to mind. Also disclosing destructive or abusive behavior to those who have the ability to stop it.
If I am aware of information that will help police to capture a murderer or a thief or a tax cheat, I am objectively required to disclose it to the proper authorities. Of course, that does not apply to a priest under the seal of the confessional, but it certainly applies to me.
The same circumstances apply if I have reason to believe a child is being abused, or a student is planning a campus shooting, or I know someone committed a robbery, or someone is abusing illegal drugs, etc. Those are "objectively valid reasons", and is in direct contrast to a situation where I harm someone's reputation for no "objectively valid reason" such as, for example, gossiping about someone, or saying something bad about someone in order to ridicule him.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:50 am |
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Switching to Catholic Terminology
disposition
As a Protestant, I heard this word when somebody's temperament was being discussed.
As a Catholic, I hear this word in discussions of how much grace one is open to receiving. Did I state that correctly?
Becky
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:51 am |
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You know, I imagine that any anti-Catholics who get into arguments with our good CajunRick or our Daves probably feel like they are arguing with a circle saw, ha, ha!  I enjoy reading about their adventures!
Speaking of revivals, Christian Churches, Baptist Churches and some other denominations will sometimes have revivals annually or thereabouts. Sometimes, if the speakers and music are good, they will be well attended, however, sometimes they can be a reason for people to stay away since as like as not they are "preaching to the choir", so to speak. Also, even if someone does attend such gatherings and becomes inspired to be of greater service to the Lord, often times the churches are "ruled", so to speak, by a core group of people and those inspired to do more, to be more involved may actually have to go out into the community, away from the church, to actually serve Christ. It can be a sad situation, at times, and perplexing to people.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:54 am |
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CajunRick wrote:
Intercessor wrote: [size=Bet we could get lots of ideas on what constitutes "an objectively valid reason."]
Cooperating with a police investigation comes to mind. Also disclosing destructive or abusive behavior to those who have the ability to stop it.
If I am aware of information that will help police to capture a murderer or a thief or a tax cheat, I am objectively required to disclose it to the proper authorities. Of course, that does not apply to a priest under the seal of the confessional, but it certainly applies to me.
The same circumstances apply if I have reason to believe a child is being abused, or a student is planning a campus shooting, or I know someone committed a robbery, or someone is abusing illegal drugs, etc. Those are "objectively valid reasons", and is in direct contrast to a situation where I harm someone's reputation for no "objectively valid reason" such as, for example, gossiping about someone, or saying something bad about someone in order to ridicule him.
Detraction
It's a hard saying, isn't it? A higher standard than just a prohibition against gossip.
Becky
Last edited on Sun Apr 20th, 2008 02:57 am by Intercessor
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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True Image
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 7th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 67 |
| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lifelong devout cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 04:44 pm |
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Intercessor wrote: True Image wrote:
Becky,
Prayer request is certainly understood and used by Catholics (though special intention is more common). Do Protestants use that term also?
In this area I have never heard a Catholic use "request" when speaking of prayer concerns.
I have been in Baptist churches from Alaska to Tennessee and have never heard a Baptist use "intention" when speaking of prayer concerns.
Becky,
I think there is a bit of nuance between prayer request and special intention when used by Catholics. Prayer requests are things we don't mind sharing. (Notice the prayer request forum here at CHNI.) For example, members of my Catholic homeschool group routinely email the group with the heading Prayer Request to bring our needs to everyone's attention. Usually, these are for sick relatives etc. We feel comfortable sharing what the situation is, and why it needs prayers.
Special intention is frequently used for personal intentions that we don't feel comfortable sharing for whatever reason. These are the hidden prayer needs deep in our hearts that we would like people to join us in praying for without disclosing what the need is.
Anne
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 263 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 06:50 pm |
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P: church
C: parish
My formerly-Baptist husband corrected me one day when I spoke about a Protestant "parish". Makes sense. In the Catholic Church, a parish is a subset of a diocese, which is a subset of the whole Church. The priest is the CEO and manager, whose boss is the bishop, the bishop's boss is the Pope. Whereas, a Protestant "church" is totally standalone, owned and run by Elders and Trustees, and not always affiliated with a specific denomination. Such meaning in a single word!
[uhm, dh is still looking for the fried chicken afterwards, and wonders why Catholics are so rude in the parking lot]
Great thread Becky/Phoebe, i've learned a lot! Great posts y'all.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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