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january tuesday
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| Joined: | Fri Apr 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Irvine, CA |
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| First Name: | Karli | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Evangelical Free, Baptist, Roman Catholic (2008) |
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 06:13 am |
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so, in mass when they have incense, the priest will walk around with the incense and then bow or genuflect and then the congreation will bow or genuflect back... what is that about??
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"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 06:47 am |
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| It's a form of blessing, akin to a priest blessing a person in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. See more info. on this. As such, it is a "sacramental."
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january tuesday
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| Joined: | Fri Apr 4th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 52 |
| First Name: | Karli | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Evangelical Free, Baptist, Roman Catholic (2008) |
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 07:14 am |
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i'm having trouble opening the fisheaters.com page, but I guess I understand how the incense is a sacramental, but why do we genuflect to one another? What exactly does genuflecting mean? I understand genuflecting to the altar because Christ is there, so is it that we genuflect to each other as the body of Christ or something like that?
____________________
"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 10:22 pm |
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Hi Karli,
Here is the relevant portion from the other page:Incense is used during the Mass to bless the Altar when the priest first ascends to it, and, during the Offertory, to bless the bread and wine, the Crucifix and Altar (again), and the congregation.
Incense is also used during the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, during processions, funeral rites and to bless things like relics, bells or the Gospel.
Bowing (not genuflecting) to each other, as in the incensing the congregation ritual is simply a gesture of respect, as they often do in Japan, China, etc., and as we used to do more often in the West, as a curtsey or a chivalrous bow, or with a king or queen. That's different from genuflecting with regard to the Tabernacle.
Note: originally I wrote "genuflect" (to each other) when I was thinking in my head "bowing" (long day!). I've now corrected that (after reading Rick's very helpful post and figuring out I goofed). We bow to each other; we genuflect to our Lord present in the Tabernacle.
Last edited on Fri May 30th, 2008 11:02 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2100+ papers & web pages (free) & 17 apologetic books (4 sale: 15 E-Books: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri May 30th, 2008 10:44 pm |
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It is proper to genuflect only to the Blessed Sacrament exposed or reserved in the tabernacle, and to the crucifix on Good Friday. Any other genuflection is an error. One should not genuflect when entering the church unless the blessed sacrament is present. Otherwise, we bow to the altar. (Kneeling before the pope or bishop during his official duties is a sign of respect for the office, and is not truly the same thing as genuflecting even though it seems like the same motion.)
We bow as a sign of respect, but also service and humility. For example, an altar server should bow to the priest after washing his hands, and the priest should return the bow as a sign of gratitude. Think of it as if a waiter said "Thank you" and you replied with "Your welcome". It's the same type of gesture.
We incense the gifts at Offertory to bless them and make them "sweet smelling" to the Lord. The congregation is incensed because we are truly offering ourselves to God. In the Eastern Churches, the deacon will often go through the congregation, up and down every aisle in the church, incensing the full congregation. In the Latin Church, the minister will usually just stand before the congregation and incense the entire congregation in one motion.
The Book of the Gospels may be incensed before the gospel is read, and the Easter Candle is incensed before the Exsultet is sung on Holy Saturday. Also, the Blessed Sacrament may be incensed while exposed during Benediction. Incense is also appropriate at other times, but they are seldom used in the Latin Rite these days.
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january tuesday
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 10:12 pm |
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ohhhh, okay. I thought genuflecting was another word for bowing. That makes more sense now. Is there any difference in the way one genuflects vs the way one bows? Or is it only a difference of context?
____________________
"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 02:34 am |
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january tuesday wrote: ohhhh, okay. I thought genuflecting was another word for bowing. That makes more sense now. Is there any difference in the way one genuflects vs the way one bows? Or is it only a difference of context?
A proper genuflection involves touching the knee to the floor. Of course, many people who have problems with their legs, and many elderly people are not able to make it all the way down and back up. Many will do the best they can. The unfortunate thing is that young people will often emulate them and barely bend their knee.
If a person cannot genuflect, they should make a profound bow, which involves bending at the waist. A simple bow involves only the head and shoulders. Of course, the elderly and disabled need not do anything beyond their capability.
The rubrics (rules) call for genuflection when entering and leaving the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. In addition, a priest will genuflect when entering and leaving the sanctuary, and after the consecration of the Precious Body and Precious Blood. A profound bow is specified during the Nicene Creed, and a simple bow is the recommended action in the United States before receiving the Eucharist.
There are other times when it is appropriate to bow, such as when altar servers assist the priest at the altar, or when the lector enters and leaves the sanctuary (the elevated area around the altar). The rubrics do specifically say that those carrying items in procession, such as the Book of the Gospels, cross, candles, and incense, should not genuflect or bow.
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Therese Z
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 02:40 am |
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I appreciate Rick's technical explanations - I always learn something. When I first saw the gesture of the incense-er bowing to the congregation and the congregation bowing back, I was delighted. Maybe that's gone on all my Catholic life, but I don't remember it as a pre-Vatican II grade-schooler, and I was brain-dead in church or simply not IN church for a long time after that.
I am always delighted with that action, and also with set of bows that goes with the altar server bringing the elements of bread and wine and water to the altar, and bows, and the celebrant bows back (whichever order that goes in, I'm not sure). I never see it as people bowing to each other, I see it as the cycle of a blessing, giving and receiving, participating together in the action. I can't think of another acknowledgement that would "fit" - waving? blowing a little kiss? clapping? (I'm being a little facetious...) But it's not television, it's live people, so we acknowledge each other's actions in a reverent way, reverent towards the meaning of the action, not the people.
It reminds me of another gripe I have about the "TV generation": at the end of Mass, the priest and servers and lectors all gather in a row, bow or genuflect to the altar, and turn and recess down the aisle. They are a foot away from people, and the people are getting their coats, fishing out their keys, talking to each other.......aaaargh! We have to recognize that we are participating TOGETHER in the Mass, and our reverent stillness while they pass, or even a friendly glance, is the right answer, while we thank God for the beauty of His Gift of the Eucharist and His Church.
Last edited on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 02:43 am by Therese Z
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january tuesday
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| Joined: | Fri Apr 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Irvine, CA |
| Posts: | 52 |
| First Name: | Karli | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Evangelical Free, Baptist, Roman Catholic (2008) |
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 03:14 am |
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thanks so much! I'm glad I asked, I had observed some of this, but had never really figured it out. i love that there's so much depth to everything, and there's always more to learn
____________________
"Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:7
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