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Darlene
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| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2007 11:57 pm |
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Hello Again Folks,
I was watching Marcus Grodi's program "The Journey Home" last night and really enjoyed his guest. He made a comment that really tickled my funny bone because I can relate. He said that he was hoping so badly that he could find Catholicism in the Anglican Church because he loved their liturgy and worship. And also, because he went through a period of not wanting to join the Catholic Church, yet loving everything about it at the same time. I certainly can relate to this attraction/repulsion. I think the repulsion comes from fear. Fear of so many things such as fear of being deceived by false religion, or fear of losing one's salvation, or fear of being rejected by everyone that is close to you, or fear of becoming Catholic and missing Protestantism culture. The list can be endless honestly.
Anyway, the comment that was funny to me is when the guest said that he played a little game called "Spot that Heresy" while attending the Anglican Church. He would write down a heresy everytime he heard one during the sermon. He said it didn't take long before he realized that just about every heresy was preached from their pulpit. He said that practically anything could be preached within the Anglican Church and be acceptable.
Along this line, I have been doing this in the church that I currently attend, which is non-denominational. So far I have heard several heresies.
1. We can't lose our salvation - once saved, always saved.
2. We don't have an ounce of holiness within us. The pastor asked the question, "How many of you are even a little bit holy?" I raised my hand and a few others as well. He said that we can't be even a little bit holy.
3. Regarding John 15:6- "If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." While preaching on this chapter, he commented when coming to this verse, "Nobody really knows what this means." Can you believe that?? My husband and I were very upset about this. We tried for several weeks to get the tape on this sermon but were always given an excuse that the tapes weren't ready, etc.
4. In this past week's sermon, the pastor said, "There is only one mediator between God and men and that is Jesus. Not a priest. We need only to confess our sins directly to God." Then he made a comment that while confessing our sins to others may be "psychologically helpful" it is not necessary because only Jesus can forgive sins. What about the Lord's Prayer that says, "Forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us? Of course, he never even considered the passage that says, "Confess your sins one to another, and pray for one another that you may be healed." That is not talking about psychological healing but spiritual healing. And then there is the necessity of confessing our sin to a brother or sister that we have sinned against, otherwise we cannot partake of holy communion.
Increasingly I am aware of this suttle belief that it's all about "Jesus and me." You know, the personal relationship with Christ taken to the extreme. And therefore, it is no one's business if we sinned, what our sins are, and if we take communion unworthily. Because that is Jesus and my business only and to think otherwise is an intrusion on my personal relationship with Christ.
These are just some of the heretical comments that have been made and preached from the pulpit. Thus, it is increasingly becoming more difficult for me to sit in the pew every Sunday without being troubled in my spirit.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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susiedear
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| Joined: | Thu Oct 12th, 2006 |
| Location: | Twin Cities, Minnesota USA |
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| First Name: | Elizabeth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Pentecostal / Evangelical / Catholic! |
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Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2007 12:40 pm |
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I know exactly what you mean, Darlene, about being uncomfortable sitting in the pew week after week, hearing things that never should be said in any church. I attend Mass on Saturday and go with my family to a Presbyterian church on Sunday morning. The last time we had communion, the cups of grape juice and plates of whole wheat bread were placed on the floor for the servers to pick up. I know that they don't believe in the Real Presence of Jesus, but why put the elements on the floor? It seemed disrespectful to me. Every week it becomes harder and harder to walk through the doors of that church.
That's why I go to Mass on Saturday. On the rare occasion when I attend Sunday Mass and the Presbyterian service, the differences become even more glaringly obvious.
Is your husband becoming as uncomfortable as you? I remember from earlier posts that you are praying for his conversion as well. He sounds as though he is a thinking, contemplative man. While I am not glad to read of the fallacies that are being preached from the non-denominational pulpit, they could serve to help him discover the truth.
Elizabeth
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But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. St. Augustine
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twiggymoo
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
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| First Name: | Twiggymoo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nazarene, Free Methodist, Baptist..Romeward bound |
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Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2007 02:31 pm |
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The last two Sundays at my baptist church are worthy of comment here. The first one was a visiting president of a christian college. He spoke on Hebrews 11 - the hall of heroes, as he called it. He mentioned most by name and they "messed up" yet were regarded as the 'cloud of witnesses' in the Hebrews list. Well, that's only half the truth - what did they do besides 'messing up' to get into that hall of heroes? Rahab, by faith, risked her life to hide the Israeli spies. No word any of them and what they did besides messing up.
The other sunday - the preacher talked about our worth as God's creation. He spent quite a bit of time talking about this and used a twenty dollar bill as a prop. He crumpled it up, stamped on it, twisted it, and made the point that it is still worth $20 because it is backed by the Gov't. Well, that sounds good, but is there nothing we need to do to be in a state of Grace? Is that all? No sin problem? No confession?
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mrbill
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| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic- Baptist- Returned Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2007 01:03 am |
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| I understand how you all feel. Over the last few months, our Church and pastor have taken a strange turn into left field. I believe that God has used this to show me and my wife how empty and confused our Non-Denominational Baptist Church really is. Controversial topics, like the Real Presence in the Eucharist, Peter being the rock that the Church was built on, etc. never seemed to come up before. But now, every Sunday I too can play "Spot the Heresy" at Church. We especially liked when the guest on "The Journey Home" referred to "getting a piece of soda cracker and a shot glass of Welch's grape juice" at Church. The problem at our Church is that no one is educated in theology, or has even studied the Bible at length. They just interpret it with their 21st century mindset and make up things as they go along. All of this has worked to turn me back to the Catholic Church, which I grew up in, and has caused my wife to actually read and study about the Church. As a Christian, she can see pretty clearly where the Bible is really being taught and followed. As a matter of fact, she credits our current pastor with causing this turn of events. I am very much looking forward to returning to the Church in the very near future.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2007 01:45 am |
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twiggymoo wrote: The other sunday - the preacher talked about our worth as God's creation. He spent quite a bit of time talking about this and used a twenty dollar bill as a prop. He crumpled it up, stamped on it, twisted it, and made the point that it is still worth $20 because it is backed by the Gov't. Well, that sounds good, but is there nothing we need to do to be in a state of Grace? Is that all? No sin problem? No confession?
Interesting. I wonder if it ever occurred to him that he would not have that $20 bill at all if it were not for his "works"? God did not give him $20 as a free gift because of his faith. He had to work for it. It's actually a ludicrous example that proves that Sola Fide is false!
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2007 07:57 pm |
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Twiggymoo,
I couldn't help but laugh when you described the pastor stomping on that $20.00 bill! I have seen so many theatrics come out of Protestant pulpits that I could write a book on it that would belong in the humor section of a book store.
There are those preachers who carry a huge hankerchief with them and keep wiping off their forehead during the sermon to make it look like they're really fired up. Then there are those preachers who talk through a microphone with a deafening tone that could make one lose their hearing - and all to a congregation of no more than 50! And then there are those preachers who breathe like they are hyper-ventilating - for what reason, I have never been able to understand. And then there are those preachers who say at the end of the service, "With all eyes closed, and heads bowed, can I see a show of hands of those who need to accept Christ as their Savior. And this is to a congregation where everyone there is supposedly already saved! And then there are those preachers who try to get the congregation all worked up and binding the devil - only for him to be released again so that he has to be bound again next week! And then there are those preachers who seem to need the confirmation of the congregation for what they have said so they say, "Can I get a witness?" or "Can I hear an amen?" And then there are those preachers who think being up on the stage (since many churces have a stage and not an altar) is a time for dancing. So while they are preaching, all hyped up, they do some kind of a two-step up there. Of course this is supposed to get the whole congregation all excited and jumping out of their seats doing the two-step as well. And then there are those preachers who tell folks to come down to the altar and receive a blessing. And when they lay hands on you, they push you so hard as to try and make you fall back. That actually happened to me and I kept resisting. I never did fall back. And then there are those preachers who have to tell a joke every few minutes just to keep the congregation's attention - or so they think. I could go on but I won't. I'm sure you get the idea.
Whatever happened to worshipping God in reverence, awe, and humility in Protestantism??
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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twiggymoo
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 10:01 am |
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Darlene wrote: Twiggymoo,
I couldn't help but laugh when you described the pastor stomping on that $20.00 bill! I have seen so many theatrics come out of Protestant pulpits that I could write a book on it that would belong in the humor section of a book store.
Whatever happened to worshipping God in reverence, awe, and humility in Protestantism??
Darlene
I know exactly what you mean! They play on emotions. Then there's the pastor that always has some tear-jerker of a story in the sermon that is supposed to get us "right with God", but it really misses the mark. I remember getting whipped up emotionally every time, but I also remember that it didn't add one iota of holiness to my puffed-up character.
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 11:18 am |
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| I wonder if we are being too hard on the preachers. After all, if a preacher has nothing to say and an hour of time to fill, he/she must do something.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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twiggymoo
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 11:20 am |
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BodRod wrote: I wonder if we are being too hard on the preachers. After all, if a preacher has nothing to say and an hour of time to fill, he/she must do something.
Well...you do have a point there. That's why I love the Blessed Sacrament.
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 11:32 am |
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Hi BodRod,
I understand what you mean - an hour and a half is a long time. But then there are those preachers who really have a gift for teaching and they have hand outs in the bulletins, so one can fill in the blanks as he is preaching. The last church I attended had a pastor who was very learned and he would go through the passage that he was teaching on very thoroughly. It was a Reformed Baptist Church and the congregation was very serious about studying God's Word the Bible. The pastor was a very learned man with a PH.D in Theology and Philosophy. He also had some kind of degree in Physics if I recall. Very intelligent man. He even assembled his own telescope which was rather large, and invited us to his home to observe the heavens through it.
I have a problem with these preachers who have little or no education and preach whatever their heart desires when they are in the pulpit. Increasingly there seem to be more of these kind of preachers in Protestantism who feel called to the ministry, but have no training and think they can preach a sermon because they are called. In fact, many Protestant faiths make light of a well-rounded education for the pastorate. Thus, we see all kinds of things being done and said from the pulpit that are unscriptural.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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DavidVS
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 11:47 am |
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Darlene wrote: Whatever happened to worshipping God in reverence, awe, and humility in Protestantism??
Millions of Presbyterians, Lutherans and other "mainstream" Protestants worship God in reverence, awe and humility every week.
I'm old enough to be an AARP member and I have never witnessed any of the antics described in this forum in a Presbyterian or Lutheran Church.
I HAVE seen them on television. But I don't think there is any evidence that these money-grubbing hucksters have attended a protestant seminary. They're hucksters who know they're mocking God - with one purpose in mind - to make a lot of money. They're not protestants, they're crooks. And I'm sure these antics take place on a regular basis in many of the non-denominational churches that are springing up all over the place. But I don't think it's fair to put the blame for these circus sideshows on "protesantism." They're usually led by self-taught, self-proclaimed "preachers." The members are former protestants (and former Catholics) and others searching for something they apparently haven't found yet.
A young lady I know left her Catholic church for one of these non-denominational sideshows because she loved to sit in a huge auditorium and listen to the rock and roll musicians who played at a decibel level comparable to a Boeing 747. She admitted she joined that "church" because "they put on a better show." How sad.
Last edited on Fri Jan 19th, 2007 11:49 am by DavidVS
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 12:45 pm |
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I agree with you David. There are those Protestant churches that are reverent and repectful in their worship. I gave the example from my former Reformed Baptist Church. The pastor never put on any theatrical side shows. And in the Wesleyan and Pilgrim Holiness Churches that I attended the people were very respectful and worshipful.
What I have been referring to is this movement that is increasingly becoming more popular under the banner of Protestantism. You know, many of the ministries that appear on that other religious network. They ridicule religion, they never mention holiness, they don't even have a cross in their auditoriums, and they talk about money and prosperity incessantly. They put on a good "show" like your friend said, which is a mockery of true worship and awe of God. They care more about entertainment and bringing in "big name preachers" to bolster their position and increase their viewership and membership. And always making it a point to the hearers that they should give financially to their ministry, promising that God will bless them back financially as well if they do.
There are many faithful Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists and Wesleyans, to mention a few, who do not support this movement away from orthodoxy. The sad thing is that this movement is attracting both Catholics and Protestants, in the guise of promising "freedom" and "prosperity."
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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DavidVS
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 02:02 pm |
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I believe the TV network you may be referring to is the INSP Network. I doubt the majority of the people you see on that network are Protestants. To be a protestant means you have to be a Christian and I don't think any of them are Christians. In my opinion, they're probably just atheist con artists. They mock God, Christianity and their audience.
One of the worst is "Dr." Mike Murdock. He sits at a piano, sings songs and tells people to send him money to buy his "keys of wisdom" books. I did some research on him and his "doctorate" is honorary - and from a non-accredited institution. He constantly brags about his private jet, his mansion all his other material possessions.
In my opinion, he's just an immoral man who mocks religion and talks gullible people out of their money. And since the owner of the INSP network has him on so often, that tells me the INSP Network is equally guilty. They're just modern-day P.T. Barnums. I hope they enjoy their private jets now because someday they're going to come face to face with the real Jesus and find out that He doesn't like to be mocked by hucksters who fleece poor people.
One night INSP was having one of their endless fundraisers. I called and asked the operator if I could "sow a seed" by paying a poor person's gas bill or helping them buy their prescription drugs. You can guess the answer - No. The money had to go directly to THEM. I wished her a pleasant evening and hung up.
Another one is "Pastor" Benny Hinn. ABC did an expose on him. He prances around in his Nehru suit and cures people. But first his staff prescreens the people who are going to be cured. The ones who are really sick are turned away. The screeners are quite skilled at picking out the ones who have some psychosomatic problem that Benny can "cure" by giving them a gentle nudge on the forehead causing them to fall back into the arms of Benny's fellow hucksters.
And then there's "Pastor" Bob Tilton who rambles on and on for an hour trying to convince the gullible to send him $1,000. He mutters some nonsense words and then says he was speaking in "tongues" and that Jesus just gave him a message. Uh huh.
I don't know who's going to Heaven and who's going to Hell but I have an idea Benny Hinn, Bob Tilton, and "Dr." Mike Murdock are going to be pretty surprised someday when they find out there really IS a Jesus because they're standing face to face with Him and find out He doesn't like to be mocked by TV con artists.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 02:39 pm |
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DavidVS wrote: Another one is "Pastor" Benny Hinn. ABC did an expose on him. He prances around in his Nehru suit and cures people. But first his staff prescreens the people who are going to be cured. The ones who are really sick are turned away. The screeners are quite skilled at picking out the ones who have some psychosomatic problem that Benny can "cure" by giving them a gentle nudge on the forehead causing them to fall back into the arms of Benny's fellow hucksters.
If you haven't already seen it, I strongly recommend everyone see Leap of Faith with Steve Martin. In it, Martin plays a traveling evangelist who is a fraud. The reason I recommend it is that it does an extremely good job of showing the tricks that are used to maximize the "take" and also how confused he becomes when confronted with genuine faith. It is one of Martin's best performances, and also features Debra Winger, Liam Neeson, and Lolita Davidovich.
The movie is rated PG-13 for language and some sexuality and drug use, but it's certainly no worse than what middle school kids see and hear in school every day, and the lesson far outweighs the negatives, especially since this "man of faith" is the main culprit in the improper behavior. There is one incident of illicit sex but nothing is shown, and again, it is the "evangelists" main assistant (played by Debra Winger) who is the seducer, and it highlights the true character of his entire entourage.
When I was in charge of the confirmation program in my parish I would show it every year between Thanksgiving and Christmas, to demonstrate the techniques that are used to draw them away from their faith. I think the movie is predictive of the ministries of some of the TV "evangelists" and the megachurches that have replaced worship with entertainment and showmanship.
I would be especially curious to hear if any of you have experienced any of the tactics used in this movie, and your reaction after seeing it.
The movie has recently been released as a bargain DVD that lists at $7.99 at Blockbuster and should be available for rent just about everywhere.
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 03:39 pm |
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Hello Again,
Quite a number of years ago I saw a movie on the scam artists of religion. The main character was played by Marjo Courtner (not sure if last name is spelled correctly). The main character actually played himself and was exposing the way that charletons manipulate their hearers. He knew all the lines to say and how to manipulate people to a tea because he had done that very thing for several years. This was not acting. Marjo saw the hypocrisy in this kind of "religion" because he had been involved in it from a small boy when he began preaching to crowds. He realized how wrong all of this was and decided to expose these kind of theatrics. Many who came to his "tent" meetings and services still thought he was a preacher because he didn't tell them he was filming it to expose the hypocrisy of that whole movement.
At one point in the film, it shows him in his hotel room after a service. He has mounds of money on his bed and shouts, "Thank you Jesus" in a very sarcastic way. Marjo at this point was so skeptical of the Christian religion that he abandoned any kind of faith in Christ. I was glad that he exposed how false religion in pentecostal circles operates in modern times, but was sad that he is no longer a Christian. (I'm not sure how sincere he ever was, but he started preaching at around the age of 8 or 9.)
BTW, the other network I was referring to was TBN. They have Benny Hinn on regularly as well as Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis and all the others who preach at the Southwest Believers Convention. I watched Jesse the other day and he was bragging about all the money he has and even openly admitting that he was bragging and had a right to brag. The conceit and arrogance that some of these health and wealth preachers have is perplexing to me since scripture makes it clear that "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. He who is first will be last and he who is last will be first. There are many verses that make it quite clear we are not to walk around boasting about what God has given us. Job said after he lost all of his riches and his sons and daughters, "The Lord gave and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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DavidVS
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 05:17 pm |
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I always understood that pride was the greatest of all sins. Those guys on TBN and INSP are truly creepy. I have a feeling there's a special place in Hell for those who mock God and use religion to defraud gullible people out of their money.
I saw a woman on INSP doing a fundraiser for the network. She said, "So, you only have $50? Send it in! What good is $50 going to do you!"
I was tempted to call their 800 number and say, 'Well, it would feed their children for a few more days until they can arrange to get some help or some more money. If they send it to you they'll have no money and their kids will go to bed hungry."
Rick, you're absolutely right about Leap of Faith. It's an outstanding movie and one that everyone should see. Steve Martin did a good thing by helping to expose some of the frauds pretending to be men of God.
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 01:40 pm |
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The only "TV preacher" I have ever really liked is Joyce Meyer. At least she shows humility and respects her audience. She is also oriented toward practical things. I have been watching her since about 1993, though her old series, "Life in the Word" was more helpful to me than the new series.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Br_Carlo
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Posted: Sun Feb 18th, 2007 04:03 pm |
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God's peace. Some years ago, when Bob Tilton was much more popular than he is now (finding the mountains of prayer requests in the dumpster behind his studio--sans dollar bills--didn't help), a friend of mine sent him a dollar so that he could get on Tilton's mailing list for "goodies." He called me over to see what has become my favorite: a full-length, life-size pinup of Robert Tilton with little cords in three colors sprouting from various places. You want money? Then tie the red and green cords together and send in a dollar. Love? Tie the red and white cords . . . and so on.
Many years ago, Frankie Shaeffer (the son of Francis Schaeffer, the late American Calvinist author and evangelist) wrote a tongue-in-cheek parody of evangelicalism and its trickery called "Portofino." The part about the "gospel walnut" used in "witnessing" encounters is worth the price, if you can find it on Amazon.com. Frankie Schaeffer is now Eastern Orthodox. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
Last edited on Sun Feb 18th, 2007 08:05 pm by Br_Carlo
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