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Prodigal Daughter
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 200 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 01:37 am |
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We would so appreciate some advice from our virtual Catholic family here at CHN.
It started with a conversation at a party last year and now has become a potential bomb ready to explode.
Our niece's husband(an ex-Catholic turned evangelical) has accused us of running away form God and says he is seriously concerned for our ability to see clearly now that we are "shouting from the rooftops" Catholic doctrines that we previously considered false. It is true that we are evangelizing through friendship, work relationships, and the Internet but when we get together with Russ' (my husband) brother and his family, we barely say a word. Although Russ did make the sign of the cross before our Christmas meal. 
We try to be charitable and kind in all of our dealings with the family but our niece's husband can't seem to stay away from Russ' blog. Recently a post about CS Lewis got him pretty angry and he posted his seemingly unedited thoughts on the blog. Here's what he said:
Moral relativism? I in NO WAY claimed there are no absolutes. I believe in absolutes! All I was claiming was that in the pursuit of absolute Truth, we (fallible human beings) MAY get it wrong along the way. Sometimes we'll hit the nail right on the head, other times we'll be really close (but not quite there), and maybe sometimes we'll be way off. If you or your readers can't understand that then I can't help you.
However, even in the face of that, we have faith that what we believe is the Truth. We have faith that it is the Holy Spirit that has given us these Truths. But we can't be so arrogant to say we couldn't possibly be wrong on some things. They could be the thoughts of man, or worse. Emphasis: COULD. That's why God also gave us the Bible, to keep us in check.
But even with the Bible, I am well aware that the many Protestant denominations have gotten things wrong over the years (the current homosexual-bishop-thing comes to mind). But the denominations got started in the first place because the Catholic Church messed up! And it wasn't the first time either! And if you think that the Catholic Church has NEVER gotten anything wrong in its 2000 years (Crusades, corrupt/warmongering Popes, Galileo, Inquisition, indulgences...), I greatly fear for your ability to see clearly anymore. You are ignoring the backpedaling of many of the Church's stances and edicts.
Whether you realize it or not, by saying the Church is human AND divine, you are saying GOD gets things wrong from time to time.
You know I was raised Catholic. I have NEVER heard that the Catholic Church considers itself both human and divine. But I will be looking into this. And if that is in fact true, all the years I have been defending the Church to my Protestant brothers and sisters will have been in vain. The audacity! Simply being appointed by God does not make you divine. (Hello! Were these people divine?: Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist! ... Need I go on!?)
The Catholic Church doesn't own the rights to the Holy Spirit, sorry.
Our main concern is that we will seriously damage the relationship with Russ' brother over this. We are going through all of the possibilities including not responding at all, calling him to discuss it, or talking to Russ' brother who is also this guy's pastor. We are sad that it has gotten to this point but as I said, he comes to the blog, we don't seek him out. We are happy to have any advice especially from those of you who are veterans at this. Thank you.
Russ and Deb
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 02:05 am |
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Prodigal Daughter wrote: We are happy to have any advice especially from those of you who are veterans at this. Thank you.
The only thing I can suggest is that you ask him to read the Catechism starting at section 748, and read all of Article 9 through section 975.
One of the problems with communicating with non-Catholics, and especially ex-Catholics, is that they are convinced that the lies they have heard from Protestant sources accurately reflect the Catholic faith. By referring him to the Catechism, and suggesting that he also read all of the footnotes, he will get a complete picture of what the Church actually teaches.
Don't be surprised if he won't do it.
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Esther
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Bronx, New York USA |
| Posts: | 157 |
| First Name: | Esther | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist to Roman Catholic 11/26/06 |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 11:43 am |
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Deborah,
WOW! That is such a piece of work. I don't have any good response. But I thought I would share a few things when people attack my beliefs and seems to defuse the situation most of the part and not compromise my faith. The most important thing if for me to pray for a poor and humble spirit when approaching my family/friends. Then I keep in mind the Church has nothing to hide (which takes away my defensiveness), to not give 'pat answers' (As the same subject is brought up quite frequently, it is easy to do), study, and be willing to walk away from an argument if that is what the Lords leads me to do.
I doubt any of this will help, but I will be praying for you. This relationship must be important to you and your husband. God's peace be with you.
In Christ,
Esther
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Prodigal Daughter
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 200 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 11:59 am |
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Yes, it's true that he has already and may only continue to read Protestant and anti-Catholic sources for his information about the Catholic Church. We also realize that we could keep this thing going with all of the apologetic defenses from Catholic sources. The question is, at what point do you just say "We're family and that is more important than all of the disagreements we have about doctrine etc."?
I wonder how far we should take it because already he is getting personally offended by our beliefs and we don't want that to spill over into a huge family feud. I guess my dilemma is, when is it time to just let it go?
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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Prodigal Daughter
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 200 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 12:05 pm |
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| Thank you Esther. I was responding to Rick with my last post but I so appreciate your response. I especially appreciated the part about praying for a poor and humble spirit and that we don't have to get defensive because the Church doesn't hide anything. Thank you, thank you.
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 457 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 12:37 pm |
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Maybe you could tell him you understand that he doesn't agree with you and but he doesn't need to worry about your salvation as you are being very careful to test everything you are learning. Tell him you understand that different denominations interpret the bible differently and you are truly looking to the bible for your confirmation. Then, tell him that you would like to not argue, because his freindship is so important to you, but you would still be happy to answer any questions he has so laong as you don't argue about your answer.
Love,
Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 01:07 pm |
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Truthseeker wrote: Then, tell him that you would like to not argue, because his freindship is so important to you, but you would still be happy to answer any questions he has so laong as you don't argue about your answer.
Deb, I think Laura's answer has great wisdom.
Christians should not argue about Christ and his message. We should celebrate our common beliefs, and discuss differences not with an eye towards conversion, but in an effort to find commonalities.
However, I would ask him how he can expect to understand Catholic teaching if he won't investigate Catholic sources? Would he seek to learn math from an English teacher? Engish from a person who speaks only German? American history or civics from a textbook produced by the Soviet Union? Capitalism from a Communist textbook? Would he like to be treated by a doctor who learned medicine from a voodoo witch doctor?
I would give him a copy of the Catechism, and tell him you would be happy to discuss (NOT argue) anything in that book, but if he honestly wants to investigate the Catholic faith, it is reasonable to request that he investigate Catholic sources. If he does not wish to do so, then I would take the matter off the table.
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 02:21 pm |
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Dear Deb,
Perhaps the four of you (you, Russ, your niece and her husband) should step away from controversy right now. How would it be if you and Russ invited them over your home for a quiet dinner? Would they accept? BTW, how is your niece reacting to all of this? What is her attitude?
Should you invite them over for dinner, say something to the effect that you would like to have a truce. Tell them that you love them and do not want to be separated from them because of your religious beliefs. And while discussing the dinner invitation, you could say that you don't want to participate in arguments or inappropriate behavior, such as yelling, name calling, etc. Yes, I do agree with Esther that approaching this from humility is the best way to have success and move forward.
As I read what your niece's husband was saying, it was as if I could hear him shouting through the written word. Why is he so angry? I too, have met ex-Catholics that are very bitter. As I have said before, they seem the worst, even worse than most Protestants I have known who were never Catholic. And many of them speak against the Catholic Church whenever there is an opportunity to do so.
You and your husband are in my prayers. I love you in Christ, sister.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Ruthie
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houston, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 99 |
| First Name: | Ruthie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nominal Presbyterian, aetheist, evangelical Christian/Episcopalian, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 03:34 pm |
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Deb,
May I add my 2 cents?
First of all, is your niece's husband a young man? I think of the term "angry young man." Sometimes younger people can be extremely passionate and even angry about their beliefs.
Then, is all this going on via email and blogs? I know from my own experience and observations that writing to someone versus talking in person, face-to-face, can completely change a person's attitude. It's kind of like road rage. People say and think terrible negative things about other drivers while in their cars that they would never say to that same person while waiting in line at the grocery store or the post office. They would be horribly embarrassed.
My suggestion would be similar to Darlene's. Refuse to discuss any of this through a written form, but meet with him over dinner and see if he will discuss any of this in a civil manner, face-to-face.
I heard an Apologist on Catholic Radio one day say that when we are defending the Faith, we should agree first of all to discuss only one issue at a time. Often, those who are attacking the Catholic faith will throw up every issue at once. Ask him which one he would like to discuss first and then work that through before you go on to another issue.
If all these attempts don't work out, maybe you should just agree to disagree and let it all alone. Sometimes the wisest thing is not to discuss religion or politics in order to maintain a good relationship, which in a family is important. Then just pray for him.
Just my 2 cents.
Ruthie
Last edited on Fri Feb 16th, 2007 05:36 pm by Ruthie
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Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it. (NRSV, Luke 18:17)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 05:31 pm |
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Ruthie wrote: I heard an Apologetic on Catholic Radio one day say that when we are defending the Faith, we should agree first of all to discuss only one issue at a time. Often, those who are attacking the Catholic faith will throw up every issue at once. Ask him which one he would like to discuss first and then work that through before you go on to another issue.
That is very true. They will also tend to throw out a different issue if you give them something that challenges their beliefs, as a way to distract you (and them) from a difficult point.
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Prodigal Daughter
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 200 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 05:56 pm |
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Rick, Esther, Laura, Darlene, and Ruthie,
Thank you all for such good advice. I can't wait until Russ gets home and we can discuss how to approach the situation. Sometimes I feel as if this forum is like a gathering around my kitchen table Funny because that is where my laptop sits on most days. I so appreciate having others to go to who understand these issues and are there for prayer and encouragement. We continue to welcome more input if anyone else has something to add. Many blessings.
Deb
____________________
"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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thiscatholicjourney
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | Reno, Nevada USA |
| Posts: | 34 |
| First Name: | Amber | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | From non-denominational to Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 06:05 pm |
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A very wise friend reminded me that a prophet is not often accepted in his hometown... what I mean is, it may be that those closest to you will never really accept what you say to them. This is something I'm learning about my family... as I pray that others will be able to reach them if I can't.
I was recently attacked myself with the whole the-Catholic-Church-is-corrupt argument... When this happens, I ask, "Do you leave Jesus because of Judas?" Of course there are sinners in the Church, but it is not the Church itself that is the problem.
I agree with others that it may be a good idea to get together without the discussion of faith... perhaps even on neutral ground, in order to keep the relationships healthy. I believe the best example of faith is in our actions...
I will pray that this situation gets smoothed over.
Prodigal Daughter wrote: Yes, it's true that he has already and may only continue to read Protestant and anti-Catholic sources for his information about the Catholic Church. We also realize that we could keep this thing going with all of the apologetic defenses from Catholic sources. The question is, at what point do you just say "We're family and that is more important than all of the disagreements we have about doctrine etc."?
I wonder how far we should take it because already he is getting personally offended by our beliefs and we don't want that to spill over into a huge family feud. I guess my dilemma is, when is it time to just let it go?
____________________
Proudly entered the Catholic Church in 2007!
Learn about my journey!
http://thiscatholicjourney.com/blog.htm
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 840 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Fri Feb 16th, 2007 08:57 pm |
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I like to work in and with facts, as much as possible. So, I would ask the person to specify the most significant issue they have with the RCC. If they try to sneak in 3 or 4 more issues tell them you will get to all their issues as time goes along but right now what is their most significant issue. I think you will find that what they see as an issue is not what the Church actually teaches or practices. One by one, compare their issues with the Catechism for what the Church believes, teaches and practices. They have a choice then to accept the official position of the Church or to continue believing what ever they WANT to believe.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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