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mrsbill
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 39 |
| First Name: | Nora | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran & Baptist backgrounds, currently on the Road to Rome! |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 03:56 am |
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Ok, well I had the lovely pleasure of telling our Pastor that I am crossing the Tiber! Oh, boy wasn't that fun. Some may know a bit of my story, others may not, but I will try to summarize as best I can.
My family and I have attended Southern Baptist churches for about a decade. My husband was raised Catholic (mass, holy days, Catholic school through graudation, etc.). I was brought up Lutheran. There is a whole background story for me, and maybe one day I will have a great conversion story to post, who knows.
Anyway, it has been a struggle to tell our Pastor for many reasons, especially because my 21 year old son is marrying his daughter in June! Our families have been friends for over a decade and we have all gone to church together in that time. Church splits lead us to help form the church we have been attending, that he Pastors (though he is not a formally trained pastor, no seminary school). We were founding members of this little church, which has been around for about 5 or 6 years now, so our leaving is probably causing quite a stir, I don't know. Anyway he called me today to talk about where we have been for the past four weeks (before that we went to both churches every Sunday), but decided that it was time to move on, because the teaching has just gotten so out there as of late.
As a side note, my Mom recently started attending this church too (about a year ago) and my brother (who is a trained Assemblies of God pastor) and his wife joined about 6 months ago. My sister started coming about 5 months ago, but has since left, because things didn't seem "quite right" with the teaching to her. She is the least "churched" of us all, but immediately felt that the theology was really out there...go figure! She couldn't have been more dead on.
So, I laid it out straight and told him that my husband, who is Catholic, and has never believed fully in the things that have been taught by the Baptist church (which they already did know), and I have decided to move on to the Catholic church. He understands why my husband would make the move (well not really understands why, but can see it happening), but he is shocked that I could possible feel comfortable at a Catholic church. Actually, I feel very comfortable and "at home" there. Much more so that I have recently at our Baptist church.
Anyway, he said two things which absolutely floored me and have left me shaken. I mentioned to him that I have a real problem with the fact that I have heard others in our church say Catholics aren't Christians, and he blurted out (then realized what he had done)..."They aren't." I said, "WHAT!!!" He quickly replied with, "Well, what I meant is not all Catholics are Christian, just like not all Baptists are Christian." But, I could tell by the way he blurted out the first comment, then realized what he had done and tried to retract it real quickly, that he truly believes the Catholics aren't Christians. I said what makes a Christian and Christian, and he said a belief that Jesus is the son of God and faith in him as our Saviour. And I said OK, what do you think the Catholics believe?
I threw it out to him, that before he goes passing judgement, he should perhaps read some about what the Catholics REALLY believe and not rely on things he's heard from others that are mistruths. He stated that he "has studied Catholic belief and knows what they believe." I find that very hard to believe based on his previous statements.
He also acted as if I am being led by someone other than God (i.e. Satan, I guess) into this decision. I told him I have never felt more led by God in this (many times kicking and screaming...sometimes God leads us where we don't want to go you know!). He said if I can look him in the eye (we had a phone conversation) and say that I feel God is leading me to this, he will have to accept it, although he strongly disagrees. I said I would have no problem with that, because I do feel led by God.
I know he feels I have been lead astray. He pointed out that I have distanced myself and not participated in "functions" for a long time...interesting statement given my husband and I lead a monthly ministry done in our church's name, to feed the homeless in a nearby town, and we can rarely get any participation out of the church members, besides my family, it's mostly just us and my family (mom, brother, sister, etc.), and I am the person who designed and upkeeps the church's website, as well as the one who designs, writes content for, and prints (in full color) our weekly bulletin (something that takes me about 4 hours every Saturday to do!).
He is referring to things like Wed. night Bible Study, Sunday school, etc., which we quit going to because things just got "too weird" for us. The ideas that get kicked around at those things are way out there and they drag them on forever, never hitting any real substance. They began to feel like a waste of time, and it just made more sense to study the Bible on our own. I have actually been in the Bible a WHOLE lot more SINCE I quit participating in their "functions." But, I guess because it's not in a "group" setting, it's not being done the right way or something. You know, I can read, I don't need other peoples "opinions" on the Bible, I can pretty much figure things out without having to be a part of a "group." Don't get me wrong, I love group Bible studies, but I want them to be actual studies, not debates that drag on forever and never come to a conclusion or go anywhere. And I certainly don't need some of the anti-Catholic things thrust down my throat that I have heard at Wed. night bible studies over the years. I actually remember hearing one church member say that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and this was like three or four years ago at one. Even then (pre-Catholic) I thought that was the most bizarre statement I had ever heard.
I'm pretty sure the last Wed. night study my husband attended was at least that long ago. I made him go by himself one night, as I was sick, and felt that one of us still needed to be there for "show." He didn't want to go, but did and came back absolutely disgusted. I guess a LOT of anti-Catholic stuff was thrown around by everyone (except the Pastor, who just sat back and listened). My husband came home and said he would never attend a Wed. night again, and for the most part didn't, unless I absolutely begged him to come for a special program or something. I suppose that should have been a sign, but God was only beginning to work on me then about all this.
The other thing we "discussed" was traditions. He has pretty much cut any "churchy" traditions from our services, and I can't even remember the last time we did communion, which is just as well for me, with the beliefs I hold now.
He believes all traditions are a bad thing. He even said the Bible states they are bad and can lead to evil. I said even Jesus had traditions because he was Jewish and followed theirs. He acknowledged that and said that was BEFORE he died and was resurrected. After that all traditions became bad and evil and the bible says so. What the heck! Where on earth does it say that. I can see scripture that supports the opposite ("hold fast to these traditions, etc., etc."), but I cannot for the life of me see where in the bible he is referring to. I even called my brother and he is floored by that statement. He has no clue either what he is talking about. Could anyone steer me to a passage where it even begins to support such a thing.
I am shocked and horrified and don't even know what to do, besides pray for strength and patience with this type of anti-Catholic bigotry. Wow, wow, wow! I don't know what else to say. This is going to be a fun wedding...it will be filled with all the people from my "now former" church, who will have heard goodness only knows what by then about us. I'm sure they are all in the loop by now (you wouldn't believe how fast word travels there!). I'm sure I have plenty of people "praying for my soul tonight!" Oh boy!
Also, please pray for me. I feel very alone (save for my husband) and am quite upset right now. I can deal with them not agreeing with certain doctrine, etc., but to out and out believe that we aren't Christians (I guarantee they feel we have joined a cult) really has wounded me and I am so deeply saddened I can't even begin to express it. This Sunday's message is really weighing on my heart, about loving people even when they are against us.
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 949 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 12:44 pm |
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A prayer for you, Nora...
Jesus said, "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in Heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. You are the salt of the earth...." Matthew 5:11
One of the reasons I believe the Catholic Church is what it says it is, is because of the hatred the world has for it. To borrow from GK Chesterton, 'who mocks and hates Thor?'
And yet, I pray you will continue to love and be patient with those you are leaving. They don't know what they're doing....
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 01:47 pm |
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You would do well to shake the dust off your feet and go where you are welcome. The sheer amount of work you have done for them gratis is evidence enough of an ulterior motive they might have in wanting you to stay, all family-related considerations aside.
Run, don't walk, to the dock on the Tiber, changing into your frilliest swimsuit as you go. I will join you on the other side with a towel!
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Annie
Ora et labora
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MitchyMitch
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 103 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 02:07 pm |
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Former SBC, here. And a lot like a mirror to your husband's experience, I was brought up to be at the church whenever the doors were opened, and I went to Baptist private schools since I was in elementary.
Breaking with the church - especially a small church - is going to be painful. I can't really see a way around the pain. This church has come to rely on you in great ways, and you helped build the church to where it is today.
The flip side is that you recognize the "holes" in the message you've heard from the pulpit and from other members. And no matter how much you serve the Lord at that church - doing what He asked in the way of feeding the poor and helping the needy, those "holes" will always be glaringly obvious.
My family is just about 100% protestant. My mom loves her church, and of course thinks every Christian needs to be Baptist. She tries to draw me into meaningless debates and can be quite insulting. I just try to keep the discussions on what we can agree about - divinity of Christ, forgiveness of sins, helping the poor. I also discuss our church's outreach to non-Catholic churches for common goals, such as the sharing of responsibility in a homeless program, a feed the hungry program, and, yes, an interfaith dialogue and prayer program with other local churches, as well as partnering up with probably the biggest SBC Church in Georgia for a silent but public demonstration for the protection of the unborn.
You have an opportunity, here. You will actually be "married in" to the leadership of your former church. This can be a wonderful relationship and a catalyst for interfaith dialogue. Since all christians have more in common than have differences, you can, with God's help, communicate and focus on the commonalities.
One of the things that is hard to get through to particulary fundamentalist types is that "difference" is not always bad. Romans 14 shows us that Christians will not always show obedience to God in the same way. Some will be led to practice their faith in different ways (vegetarianism, alcohol absitinence, observance ir nonobservance of particular days). As we are all servants of God, who can criticize you as God's servant? You are willingly and humbly submitting to God, sometimes "kicking and screaming" as you approach the Tiber. Boy, can I relate!
____________________
Pax,
Mitch
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Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1405 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 03:01 pm |
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Nora, I can see you're in a real pickle, with the upcoming marriage of your son to this pastor's daughter. While not wanting to come across as a wet-blanket, wise-guy or cynic, I am very serious when I say I hope you don't take a financial beating should the pastor use his influence over his daughter, breaking it off and breaking a lot of hearts in the process.
After all, this man has given all the indications of an anti-Catholic. His disparagment of our Christianity, and the way he sat on his duff during the group meeting -- are not just signals from God or even this man, these are billboards of the kind you'd find on I-4!
This minister is by now in a state of severe angst because the last thing a Protestant minister wants to see in an area where evangelical activity is very competitive, is the moment he has to "explain" why he's letting his child marry the son of a couple that's leaving his church for Rome.
You have my prayers, and I'm sure the prayers of hundreds or thousands of Catholics and prospective converts, who must be shocked and outraged at the situation you're finding yourself in now. You are a brave woman, wife and mother. I know how frustrating this must be for you. Right now timing, patience, love and many, many prayers.,
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James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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JasPax
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 272 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 05:24 pm |
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Hello Nora,
I agree with Nick. I think your former pastor's biggest worry is that he thinks it makes him look bad. One of my flock is leaving, will people think poorly of me?
Easier said than done, but I think your best bet is just to rise above it all. Let all the gossip and slander pass you by. Do not rise to the bait and let yourself be drawn into long explanations. Maintain a Christian demeanor and give short, charitable answers to any questions from your former church members.
Remember, you are headed for the Truth. They don't have what you have - they can't understand at this time. Your attitude will make a wonderful testimony.
God Bless and I'm praying for you - we all are.
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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mrsbill
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 39 |
| First Name: | Nora | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran & Baptist backgrounds, currently on the Road to Rome! |
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Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 03:24 am |
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Thank you all for your comforting replies.
...with the upcoming marriage of your son to this pastor's daughter...I am very serious when I say I hope you don't take a financial beating should the pastor use his influence over his daughter, breaking it off and breaking a lot of hearts in the process.
I don't see that happening. These kids have been together since early high school. My son's 21 and he's not leaving the church we are at, just me and my husband are. While he and his future father in law don't see eye to eye on a lot of things theologically, I think he stays for the sake of his fiance, but they have expressed an interest to move on to a different church, more geared towards couples their age, and I suspect a bit bigger as well. This may happen anyway if my son is accepted into grad school at Georgia State in the fall, so it will probably be good for them to get away and become their own people.
But, my son is definately not for me "going Catholic" either. While he doesn't share the feeling that Catholics aren't Christian, he laughs at a statement like that, he doesn't support me making this move without "counseling," as he calls it. I said so who am I supposed to get "counseling" from, a Catholic priest or a Protestant pastor...um...???
He flat out doesn't agree with a lot of Catholic beliefs. Although I don't think he really has a firm grasp on them, I do believe he has a better grasp than most we know.
But, as my sister said today, he is not going to sit by and let others "bash" us in his presence without mounting a defense of some sort. I imagine I have just made the relationship with his bride to be more difficult, but I don't see a break up coming out of it.
This minister is by now in a state of severe angst because the last thing a Protestant minister wants to see in an area where evangelical activity is very competitive, is the moment he has to "explain" why he's letting his child marry the son of a couple that's leaving his church for Rome.
Wow, I never thought of that! Now, I feel kind of bad about putting someone in that position.
Although I don't think the problem is explaining the marriage of our kids, because my son is a "golden boy" of sorts in the church, and as I said he's not going anywhere. We had a very active youth group when our kids where coming up. A good portion of those kids have moved on to having sexual relationships and we have even had two girls from the group that our kids where all involved in have babies already. My son and his daughter have remained sexually pure throughout their entire relationship (which is like 6 years long at this point, maybe 7), not even so much at our urging (though they know we would kill them if the didn't...LOL!), but because they felt it was they way God wanted their relationship to be. They are pretty open about that with the younger kids. I know a lot of people would say, nah, that doesn't happen anymore. Kids don't do that. But I can assure you they have remained quite true to their vow to remain virgins until marriage.
But, I can see where it is hard on him having to explain why we are leaving the church after so many years, and being founding members and all. Especially to become Catholic! That kind of makes me feel bad! 
It's kind of funny, but no mention was made of the weekly bulletins during our talk. I guess I will continue being the "bulletin fairy." I have been doing them on Saturdays and dropping them off Saturday nights at the church, so they are there first thing Sunday morning, since I haven't been going there for a month now.
Please don't get me wrong, as it's just my frustration talking, but I really do like these people as people (in the past they have been the first to arrive when someone needs help), it's just that our theologies no longer mesh at all. I am still trying to understand a lot of what was said in our conversation. I know one thing that kept getting said is he just doesn't see how I could possibly be comfortable sitting in a Catholic mass. He has been to some and felt very uncomfortable. But, as I told him, and I am telling you now, it is amazing just how comfortable I DO feel in mass. I don't even know a soul (besides my husband) and I feel so relaxed and comfortable I look forward to getting up and actually going to church (and I am not a morning person!).
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susiedear
Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 12th, 2006 |
| Location: | Twin Cities, Minnesota USA |
| Posts: | 186 |
| First Name: | Elizabeth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Pentecostal / Evangelical / Catholic! |
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Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 09:51 am |
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Wow, Nora, you and your husband and people of great courage and integrity. My family and I attend a huge Presbyterian church and I am almost completely anonymous -- no one notices my absences and no one cares that I am converting to Catholicism. I admire you for following what you have discovered to be the Truth of the Catholic Church, even though following that truth is causing you adversity. Thank you for writing your story.
Elizabeth
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But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. St. Augustine
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Prodigal Daughter
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 200 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 04:18 pm |
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Nora,
God bless you on this journey that you are taking. As I have said in the chat, we are in a similar situation with my husband's brother. We got married in the church where he is the pastor and his children and their spouses are also members of that church. We have to go their several times a year for events. It is very awkward. You can see by the post "Family Troubles" that I recently put on the forum.
In the 2 1/2 years since we left I have found that the best response is to wait. After we have prayed about a situation and posed the problem to the forum or whatever, it seems that things settle down. I try to remember that when people make rude comments, they are angry at someone or something else besides me. We have become the scapegoat for their anti-Catholic hatred, but as Jill D said "Blessed are the persecuted."
Our unconditional love for them will be more of a witness than the most well thought out apologetic argument. You are in my prayers!
Deb
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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wmschrader
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Fort Myers, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 100 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Feb 23rd, 2007 12:11 pm |
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This link might give you some background on Tradition
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
____________________
Bill
Glory be to God for all things
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cdunh
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 20th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 30 |
| First Name: | Cal | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist to Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 01:23 pm |
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Please allow me a reflection. It is universal to all mankind that we tend to "reify" specific objects that we have invested with meaning, time, and commitment. This is particularly significant for Church (buildings, programs, groups, etc.); and specifically significant for small "seperated" groups. To reify is to make the object more meaningful than is its objective substance, elevating its meaning. We all do this with our churches and other "objects" in our experience. (The "feeling" of comfort when we are near sacramentals is an example of "reification".) Therefore, I suggest that it may be fruitful to communicate great respect for your friends in the church you are leaving. Let them know that you continue to love them, honor their commitments, and be ready to respond to any questions they may ask about your growth and "pursuit of truth" and the Catholic Church. I would not confront their fears but simply demonstate love, trust, respect, and confidence in your own growth. Enjoy your friends and allow them to enjoy your happiness and growth. Your experience is consistent with my experience. I have said a prayer for you and all who face similar situations.
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