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brian
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 06:08 pm |
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What if somebody made it through their first confession, but afterward decided not to be received into the church on Easter. Would the sacrament be valid or not? It may seem like a funny question, but somebody asked me who I think really wants this sacrament but is also worried that afterward he may run into issues with the intructor.
I guess I said that there is no point to going to reconciliation unless you fully intend to be confirmed, because even if your sins were forgiven, you would then be walking in disobedience to the church and guilty of worse sin. That going to reconciliation is not just about being forgiven but also about from that point on doing all you can to live within the churches guidelines. I would think it better to not have gone at all until you were 100% sure you intended on following it up immediately with submission to the church.
But has this ever happened, and in which case what does that mean about having received a sacrament from the church without actually being cathollic? When are we considered catholic? I would think that it was at Easter, but I also would think that in order to receive any sacrament (especially reconciliation) you would need to be Catholic, therfore, are we actually Catholic when we make our first confession...Is this sacrament valid in dependence on the fact that we intend to receive the other sacraments?
Also, I tend to think my sins have already been forgiven, because as a protestant I had no belief in or ability to go to this sacrament. I look at my fisrt confession as more the church forgiving me officially and pronouncing my forgiveness as a definitive statement and enabling me to be united to them because the rift my sins has caused has been acknowledgerd and forgiven, which will be very comforting and healing for me. But, are all my past sins technically still unforgiven until that day?
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 07:11 pm |
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brian wrote: ..... but somebody asked me who I think really wants this sacrament but is also worried that afterward he may run into issues with the intructor.
My first reaction to your question was that the person is not joining the instructor but rather the Church Christ Himself started with His instructions to Peter. I had some issues also with what was presented in RCIA but I took the position that maybe I did not understand as much or understand in the same way as I would if and when I know more. Therefore, I went along with the program and what do you know? I was right. I have learned and experienced more and I understand more and better. There is also something to be said for the value of the human need of and for "belonging" and also the support and benefits of the Church community.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 07:46 pm |
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brian wrote: What if somebody made it through their first confession, but afterward decided not to be received into the church on Easter. Would the sacrament be valid or not? It may seem like a funny question, but somebody asked me who I think really wants this sacrament but is also worried that afterward he may run into issues with the intructor.
If someone has "issues with the instructor" and fails to join the Church over something so insignificant, I think that person has problems that are much more serious than whether they are forgiven in an invalid sacrament.
In my opinion, the graces of any sacrament are dependent on acceptance of the authority of the Church. He who knows and understands the authority of the Church well enough to submit willingly to confession certainly understands that authority well enough to know that the Church is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ, and so to fail to join is probably a more serious sin than any sin that person has previously committed, as it would be directly rejecting the will of God as expressed in the words of Jesus when he prayed that we would all be one as he and his heavenly Father are one. I think that would be a violation of the first commandment, as he would be placing his pride ahead of God's will.
That person can also no longer claim innocence through ignorance if he has been given enough knowledge to believe that forgiveness from a priest is necessary.
So no, I don't think anyone who, at this point, is still uncertain about converting should approach the Sacrament of Penance.
As to your other question about whether you were previously forgiven, all forgiveness comes from God. The priest has no authority to forgive sins except what comes from God through his ordination, and his ability to stand in the presence of Christ. When we ask God for forgiveness directly, God forgives us if we are sufficiently contrite. We confess to the priest to gain forgiveness from the Church, but also to obtain the certainty of forgiveness, and because confession fulfills the will of our Savior.
When Jesus taught us to pray, he said God would forgive our sins as we forgive others, and we certainly fail often to forgive. So if God holds to that standard, many of us will be surprised to find out at our deaths that our sins were not forgiven at all. However, Jesus gave the Church through the priest the power to forgive sins under less perfect circumstances, so as long as we don't withhold sins from the priest, we can be certain that every sin is forgiven.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 08:30 pm |
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When are we considered Catholic? I would think that it was at Easter, but I also would think that in order to receive any sacrament (especially reconciliation) you would need to be Catholic, therefore, are we actually Catholic when we make our first confession.
A candidate is not officially Catholic before his official reception into the Church. Canon Law (Can. 844 §4) makes provision for legal and valid reception of certain sacraments by validly baptized non-Catholic Christians. The bishop or the episcopal conference has specific authority to approve the administration of the sacrament of penance in the case of candidates who “demonstrate the catholic faith in respect of these sacraments and are properly disposed” on the basis of a “grave and pressing need.” That need, of course, is the person’s proximate entry into the Catholic Church.
On the other hand, a person is mystically a Catholic while he is in the process of becoming a Catholic. For this reason, if he should die while in this process, he is allowed a Catholic burial.
Rick has admirably answered your other questions.
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Br. Rich SFO
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Posted: Sun Mar 18th, 2007 09:10 pm |
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| The reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation would be valid and effective. One would have to question how an RCIA team, Pastor and Sponsor all missed something though.
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brian
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Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 01:25 pm |
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When Jesus taught us to pray, he said God would forgive our sins as we forgive others, and we certainly fail often to forgive. So if God holds to that standard, many of us will be surprised to find out at our deaths that our sins were not forgiven at all. However, Jesus gave the Church through the priest the power to forgive sins under less perfect circumstances, so as long as we don't withhold sins from the priest, we can be certain that every sin is forgiven.
I have a question/problem with this. It seems a bit difficult for me to see how this is honoring the Bible and Jesus' words. If Jesus says that we need to forgive others to be forgiven He either meant it or He did not. Why can the church believe that He did mean it, yet then teach that there is a way to have your sins forgiven even if you haven't forgiven others? Seems like a contradiction to me. Either forgiving others is a requirement for forgiveness or it is not, and it seems like to say it is not always because of the sacrament, then it seems you are undermining what Jesus taught. Even if somehow it were possible to be forgiven without forgiving others, then our lack of forgiveness I would think would still be a sin we would be guilty of. It is hard to imagine that everyone who does not forgive others completely will not be forgiven, because what would that say about their eternal destiny, or is that something they would work out in purgatory?
Anyway how can you resolve the tension I see between Jesus' words linking forgiving others in order to know we are forgiven and what you are telling me about the sacrament of reconciliation?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 02:25 pm |
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Canon Law states:
Can. 960 Individual and integral confession and absolution constitute the only ordinary means by which a member of the faithful conscious of grave sin is reconciled with God and the Church. Only physical or moral impossibility excuses from confession of this type; in such a case reconciliation can be obtained by other means.
Here is the summary section of the Catechism on the Sacrament of Penance:
1485 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week," Jesus showed himself to his apostles. "He breathed on them, and said to them: 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained"' (Jn 20:19, 22-23).
1486 The forgiveness of sins committed after Baptism is conferred by a particular sacrament called the sacrament of conversion, confession, penance, or reconciliation.
1487 The sinner wounds God's honor and love, his own human dignity as a man called to be a son of God, and the spiritual well-being of the Church, of which each Christian ought to be a living stone.
1488 To the eyes of faith no evil is graver than sin and nothing has worse consequences for sinners themselves, for the Church, and for the whole world.
1489 To return to communion with God after having lost it through sin is a process born of the grace of God who is rich in mercy and solicitous for the salvation of men. One must ask for this precious gift for oneself and for others.
1490 The movement of return to God, called conversion and repentance, entails sorrow for and abhorrence of sins committed, and the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future. Conversion touches the past and the future and is nourished by hope in God's mercy.
1491 The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest's absolution. The penitent's acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation.
1492 Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called "perfect" contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called "imperfect."
1493 One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience. The confession of venial faults, without being necessary in itself, is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.
1494 The confessor proposes the performance of certain acts of "satisfaction" or "penance" to be performed by the penitent in order to repair the harm caused by sin and to re-establish habits befitting a disciple of Christ.
1495 Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ.
1496 The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:
- reconciliation with God by which the penitent recovers grace;
- reconciliation with the Church;
- remission of the eternal punishment incurred by mortal sins;
- remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin;
- peace and serenity of conscience, and spiritual consolation;
- an increase of spiritual strength for the Christian battle.
1497 Individual and integral confession of grave sins followed by absolution remains the only ordinary means of reconciliation with God and with the Church.
1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.
The Church tells us that God will forgive our sins directly if our contrition is perfect (that is, arising from the love of God); only the Church can forgive sins if our contrition is imperfect (that is, arising from a different motive, such as fear of damnation). This comes from the Church's power to bind and to loose. When Jesus gave the Church the power to forgive and retain sins, he did so without limit.
Other than the references in scripture to forgiveness, we don't know when God forgives sins and when God retains them.
We do know when the Church forgives sins and when the Church retains them. So from the Church, we have the certainty of forgiveness.
The bottom line is that God knows what is in our hearts; the Church does not. The Church gives us the benefit of the doubt. God's knowledge of our intentions is certain. but our knowledge of God's forgiveness is not.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 05:41 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: Other than the references in scripture to forgiveness, we don't know when God forgives sins and when God retains them.
We do know when the Church forgives sins and when the Church retains them. So from the Church, we have the certainty of forgiveness.
The bottom line is that God knows what is in our hearts; the Church does not. The Church gives us the benefit of the doubt. God's knowledge of our intentions is certain. but our knowledge of God's forgiveness is not.
Are you saying that forgiveness from the church is better than forgiveness from God or makes it unnecessary? or that somehow if the church forgives us we know God has to accept it because of the authority he gave the church even though you say we do not know when God forgives the sins or not? I find that difficult. Plus it does not answer my question about whether or not there is a contradiction between Jesus' words that we must forgive others to be forgiven, and what you told me about confession which seems to be that we can be forgiven even if we have not forgiven others.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Mar 19th, 2007 06:47 pm |
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brian wrote: Are you saying that forgiveness from the church is better than forgiveness from God or makes it unnecessary?
Certainly not. Forgiveness comes only from God. God has chosen to be bound by the sacraments. The Church only acts as the medium by which we receive God's freely given grace. This is the mechanism established by our Savior.
God's grace flows to us through the sacraments. All of them. God has chosen to be bound by the sacraments, but God is not limited by the sacraments. Grace flows to us outside of the sacraments as well.
Does this mean grace does not flow to Protestants who do not receive the sacraments? No. God certainly gives them grace as well. When and how? We don't know. God is bound by the sacraments, but not limited by the sacraments. God is free to grant grace in any way God chooses.
God has also chosen to be bound by the Sacrament of Penance. We know from the words of Jesus that the sins forgiven by the Church are forgiven by God. Forgiveness comes only from God. God is bound by the Sacrament of Penance, but not limited by the Sacrament of Penance.
God is free to forgive outside of the sacrament, but we do not know when or how. God certainly forgives our sins even when we do not confess sacramentally, but we do not know when or how. It is a mystery.
God certainly forgives our sins through the Sacrament of Penance. Is forgiveness any better if it comes through the Church? No. However, it is certain when it comes through the Church (as long as we fulfill the criteria of being sorry for our sins with a firm intention to do better in the future). Forgiveness by the Church is also a necessary part of reconciliation, and that forgiveness comes from the priest who is absolving us in the name of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, on behalf of the People of God, the Catholic Church.
From the Catechism:
1497 Individual and integral confession of grave sins followed by absolution remains the only ordinary means of reconciliation with God and with the Church.
That means that reconciliation with God is extraordinary when it does not involve confession to a priest and sacramental absolution. Of course, God would not hold those who, through invincible ignorance, do not understand the requirement to confess and be sacramentally forgiven by the Church, and so God will provide other methods, just as God desires the salvation of all and so will make salvation available to the unbaptized. But since those who do not confess and receive sacramental absolution do not authoritatively hear the words of absolution, there is no certainty of forgiveness, and no certainty of reconciliation with the Church.
These are mysteries we don't understand. The only certainties we have are the assurances given by Jesus to the Church. When you take the authority of the Church out of the equation, you also take away the certainty of the ordinary method given to us by our Savior.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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lkm
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 02:44 pm |
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ok, i just came across this discussion and, at first, my stomach churned upon reading some of the answers. So I stepped away, made some coffee, and sat back down to trudge through the rest of the discussion.. which went another direction. So i still think something else needs to be said...
Brian's friend is obviously struggling, be it pride or lack of complete understanding. Either way, isn't it likely that evil is working to distract him? With a heart of mission, and a heart that has fallen in love with the Catholic church and its teachings, I do not believe the way to approach this is with fire and brimstone (which is how I interpreted some of the answers given). "yikes!" I thought, if that were me, I'd run away from the Catholic church so fast.....
I think this situation needs to be approached like a good authoritative parent with a child who is at the age that they should "know better," but seems to not. Teach the values of rules, not just the rules. Most importantly, what is the root of his struggle? Consider first what's going on that is causing your friend to approach the sacrament of penance in such a way, before throwing canon law at him. After all, if he's missing some important aspects of the teachings of Catholicism, what respect will he have for more law?
An example here.. when I'm trying to explain the basis of Tradition to my non-Catholic friends, I feel its important to first explain that the Bible came from oral tradition so without oral tradition, we'd not have the Bible. Then I explain that it was not meant to be the end-all-be-all authority, aka "sola scriptura," in fact, the Bible, itself, states otherwise! This way I am meeting them on their "turf," so to speak.. with something they respect and understand. If I just teach Tradition without exlaining its foundation, my friends will likely have neither respect for or understanding of it.. not out of evil, but ignorance. If, however, it is explained on terms they understand, it rocks their world a little bit! Does that make sense?
Call me naive, but perhaps Brian's friend feels a desire to have his sins absolved but is still struggling with other teachings of the church, or those who are representing it to him. I don't think that's evil or terribly unusual. What I do think, is that it seems no one is meeting him where "he's at" to help him understand and he may get lost in the shuffle or turn away from the Catholic church because he lacked courage to ask more questions, or no one reached out to help him. If he's considering not becoming Catholic because of his RCIA instructor, he must be lacking a deeper understanding of the church and its teachings. Either way, he is obviously struggling with something and i think that that is what needs to be discovered and uprooted first.
Like a parent standing firm in love, its sounds like he'd benefit from some authoritative teaching. I say this a lot, but I think he should spend time with a priest who has a desire to teach firmly in light of love and grace. Discover his struggle, explain the importance and reverence of the sacrament, and go from there. Because a good parent doesn't just throw rules in their child's face, nor does he/she soften the boundaries they had previously established because they don't want to punish their child. They teach the child and if the child isn't "getting it," they look further to see what's distracting them from learning, then teaches them in a way the child can comprehend. This way the child doesn't grow up following rules so as only to avoid punishment, rather, the child grows up grounded in values and believing in them because they understand the importance of them- they've lived them.
I believe a good parent takes the opportunity to teach before and after mistakes are made, rather than just throwing rules in their child's face or just punishing them once the mistake is made.
As a once-proud Lutheran, I can tell you that if those from whom I was learning about the Catholic church would have thrown law in my face.. i would have run directly back to the comfort of the grace expressed by my original faith denomination. I believe one can stand firm but teach and live truth with love, grace, and understanding. 
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 03:25 pm |
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lkm wrote: Brian's friend is obviously struggling, be it pride or lack of complete understanding. Either way, isn't it likely that evil is working to distract him? With a heart of mission, and a heart that has fallen in love with the Catholic church and its teachings, I do not believe the way to approach this is with fire and brimstone (which is how I interpreted some of the answers given). "yikes!" I thought, if that were me, I'd run away from the Catholic church so fast.....
Laura, I think you hit the nail on the head, but I don't see our answers as "fire and brimstone". The Sacrament of Reconciliation is part of the process for a candidate for full communion to become part of the Catholic Church. With just a couple of weeks to go until reception, I don't think anyone who seriously doubts whether they should join the Church (for whatever reason) should be considering sacramental absolution. Yes, it is valid and effective, but isn't it like a bride planning a wedding she doesn't know that she'll attend? Who is she helping by getting caterers, planning a rehearsal dinner, etc.? Cold feet is one thing, but serious doubts should be enough to cause at least a postponement.
If someone has reached this point and is seriously considering not joining the Church, I think it's time to step back and take another look. Make prayer a strong component of the final decision, and that will certainly overcome the Evil One. Seek spiritual guidance and reach a final decision.
There are three possible decisions. One is to go ahead and join the Church, which should only be done without serious reservations. Two is to decide not to join the Church, and that is an equally serious decision. The third is simply to wait until another, more appropriate time. Perhaps the parish would be willing to let him wait until Pentecost, until his doubts are resolved in his own mind.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 08:23 pm |
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Well, I just pray God takes care of him. Really, I think he wants to be Catholic, I just think his pride is hurt. He said he would prefer joing somewhere else. But I think he was basically just hurt and is not frankly always on the level. I think I gave him good advice, which was and will be to be humble and if he truly wants to become Catholic to not let anybody ruin it for him or give Satan the victory. If he is not sure, he should not even go through with the reconciliation. But, if the only reason not to join is feeling offended, then that is foolish because he is failing to do what God is asking in favor of pride, but the thing is, he really is not so emotionally stable so sometimes it is not possible to use logic if he is bent or paranoid or hurt. I think things will work out fine. I just worry because the sacrament is tuesday and we only have one more session before that. I would hope if anything is going to keep him from graduating that it would come up before then. My fear is that he will make it through till tuesday and then somehow be challenged like a week later on something and freek out and impulsively leave the program. If anything like this happens, I will try to find a priest that will be willing to deal with the situation and possibly resolve things and initiate and confirm him later.
For now it is a matter of me making sure he knows not to go through with confession unless he is pretty sure he intends on doing whatever it takes to make it through till confirmation and live a Catholic life.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2007 08:34 pm |
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brian wrote: I think I gave him good advice, which was and will be to be humble and if he truly wants to become Catholic to not let anybody ruin it for him or give Satan the victory. If he is not sure, he should not even go through with the reconciliation. But, if the only reason not to join is feeling offended, then that is foolish
Brian, I think that is exactly the right advice. It is not likely he could go to another parish now without restarting the process, but once he has completed the initiation he is free to attend mass at any Catholic church.
No person or parish will ever jeopardize my salvation. My relationship is with Jesus through his Church, and no parish or person (priest, staff, or volunteer) will ever drive me away.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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