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CloisterWalkin
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 7 |
| First Name: | francis | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | LCMS, Non-Denominational, RCIA |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 06:25 pm |
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I am close to 50 yrs old, baptized and confirmed in the
Lutheran church, spent 16 yrs in a non-denominational church, was
a very active Christian, taught bible studies,
organized VBS, taught Sunday School etc. My husband and I have been married for 30 yrs, no divorces or anything like that.
About 5 yrs ago I began questioning sola scriptura
which eventually led to reading church history. About
2 yrs ago I began reading the early church fathers and
suddenly my eyes were opened to the Truth of
Catholicism! I have been studying the Catholic faith ever since and am
involved with several online Catholic groups. I
frequent Catholic Answers, this Coming Home
Network and am going through the catechism via
4marks.com. I watch EWTN all the time! I love Fr Mitch Pacwa, Marcus Grodi, Mother Angelica is awesome (her new little book is a gem, thanks Raymond), Fr Corapi, Fr Benedict Groeschel, Life on the Rock, Daily Mass, I say the Holy Rosary with Mother Angelica and I love The World Over with Raymond!
My question is:
Since I am anxious to enter the RCC and I have studied
extensively, is there a reason/need for me to go
through almost 18months (including Inquiry) of RCIA? I
have another year to go in this particular RCIA but I
am struggling with some things. The candidates and
catechumens are doing the exact same program, no
consideration is made for previous Christian life
(our priest has delegated RCIA to the
facilitators and takes a hands of approach). Candidates must participate in
the scrutnies as well.
Most of Sunday is spent at church which means that my husband, the
children and I spend little family time beings that my husband has only Sunday off and even works sometimes on Sunday!
I used to go to an early Mass
with my children (hubby does not attend church) but now
my children can't go to Mass because they can't go to my
RCIA class with me. They have gone to church with me their entire lives
and leaving them home because I am in RCIA is weakening their spiritual lives as well as saddens me so!
Should I submit to everything this RCIA demands out of
obedience to the church or should I go across town to
another RCIA who is willing to look at each person's
Christian history and take that into account? I talked with this
other RCIA and they are eager to help me enter the RCC
sooner than NEXT Easter Vigil. The problem with that is that I have to find a priest willing to confirm me. I guess it is a process for them and I know there is a priest shortage presently.
I want to be in full communion with the Church and I
hunger for the Eucharist! I believe all of what the Catholic Church teaches and I am ready to enter! What options do I have as far as entering the Church other than Easter Vigil 2008! I do not think I am
demanding anything the Church does not make allowances
for but I do not want to be rebellious in any way.
Could you please help me with this?
____________________
~There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing.~Archbishop Fulton Sheen
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David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1805 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 08:09 pm |
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We hear a lot of complaints like yours, Francis. Unfortunately, some parish RCIA programs can be inflexible. And there is little that can be done about it, because it is perfectly legal. Each parish, so long as it complies with the general diocesan norms, is allowed to structure its program any way it wants. Some pastors are active in RCIA, others leave it to a deacon or to the parishioners. It’s all allowed.
Since I am anxious to enter the RCC and I have studied extensively, is there a reason/need for me to go through almost 18 months (including Inquiry) of RCIA?
Likely there is not. Certainly you should not be required to follow exactly the same steps and rituals as the catechumens. Some are inappropriate for candidates. But again, if there is no diocesan requirement preventing this from happening, it is legal.
Short-shrifting your children because of such requirements as you mention is, in my opinion, abusive. The Catholic Church has a doctrinal and moral commitment to the family, and these requirements are contravening that commitment.
I talked with this other RCIA and they are eager to help me enter the RCC sooner than NEXT Easter Vigil. The problem with that is that I have to find a priest willing to confirm me.
The ordinary minister of confirmation is the bishop. Normally, delegation to the parish pastor (not just any priest) is only done at the Easter Vigil, because the bishop cannot be everywhere at once. Perhaps a call to the chancery office would yield better information as to what can be done if the “better equipped” parish can’t guarantee you confirmation when you are ready. What do they do in other cases? Is the bishop willing to confirm?
But there are also points in favor of a more leisurely pace to RCIA. I know you are anxious; you have said as much. But often the contact with others in the parish and familiarizing yourself with the way things are done in the Catholic Church and in your parish in particular are more valuable than first appears. Another common complaint is the isolation and loneliness that one feels after becoming Catholic. If you are an extreme extrovert and “doer,” this may not be a problem to you personally, but there are many who do have this difficulty. They find great consolation in the class time devoted to fellowship and familiarization and developing devotion. It’s not all head knowledge; the heart has equal rights.
Finally, I must comment on a breadwinner who thinks he has to work six and seven days a week. This is heading for an early grave. Is money really worth that? Does the family expect it of him? If so, what does this say about the family’s priorities?
David
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CloisterWalkin
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 7 |
| First Name: | francis | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | LCMS, Non-Denominational, RCIA |
| Status: |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 08:42 pm |
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Thank so much for your help!
I do see the value in spending time in RCIA. I actually love being around other Catholics and learning from them. I have been in RCIA (starting with Inquiry) for six months now and it has been interesting. I guess a big issue is the timing of the class. An evening class during the week would work better for me.
As far as my husband working 6-7 days a week, it is partly because he has decided this is what he needs to do and partly because his work requires it. Financially, we are doing quite well and this working schedule is not necessary. We, his family, do not require this of him and actually discourage him from doing it. He is not interested in going to church but supports us going.
____________________
~There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing.~Archbishop Fulton Sheen
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5101 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Online
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 09:44 pm |
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First of all, please let me welcome you to the Coming Home Network. We are happy to have you here with us, and will do our best to answer your questions charitably and honestly. We look forward to having you share your full conversion story with us when you're ready.
CloisterWalkin wrote:
Since I am anxious to enter the RCC and I have studied
extensively, is there a reason/need for me to go
through almost 18months (including Inquiry) of RCIA?
No, there is no need. But there may be a reason.
The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults is intended for the unbaptized, unchurched individual who wishes to join the Christian faith through the Catholic Church. However, in the United States, it is almost as common for those previously baptized in other Christian faiths to join the Church through the RCIA. The unbaptized tend to be members of ecclesial communities that do not stress the necessity of water baptism, so they just never get around to it. Many are "bible believers" with no formal church at all prior to joining the Catholic faith. Some are Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, and some are Jews, Ba'hai, Buddhists, or Muslims. In my parish, most of the unbaptized are young (usually teens) who's parents were baptized Catholic but never came to church, and never taught them their faith. Some come to the faith by themselves, others through an awakening by their parents. Most others are spouses of Catholics, some of whom have been active in our parish for years before deciding to officially join the faith.
Our RCIA program lasts 8-9 months. It begins in late August or early September, and most are ready by the Easter Vigil. Because of a lack of personnel, we do have catechumens, candidates for full communion, and even adult candidates for confirmation in the same group, but we handle them quite differently for the Rites and sacraments. If you've already been going for six months, why do they (or you) feel its necessary for you to go through the entire cycle again?
The RCIA instructions state that candidates for full communion should go through a shorter process than catechumens, based on their own individual needs, and they should be admitted to the Church at a Sunday liturgy other than Easter where they make their profession of faith and receive Eucharist, after having made their first confession. They should be confirmed with the next Confirmation class by the bishop, although a priest can receive permission to confirm for a valid reason. This is the ideal; it normally isn't done this way because of the manpower involved, the lack of volunteers, and the problem with confirming other than at the Easter Vigil.
It is my experience that those who are baptized in other Christian faiths have many more obstacles to overcome than those who are completely unchurched. The unchurched are a blank slate; those coming from other faiths have much misinformation that must be unlearned. There are some who have been ready in short order; most are not. (This is not a judgment at all of your preparation or commitment, just an observation on my part.)
Give your pastor the benefit of the doubt, and assume he has valid reasons for doing things the way he does. Ask his permission to attend the other RCIA program; just tell him it's more convenient to your schedule. You don't technically need permission, but it helps to avoid hard feelings. Of course, the people in the other RCIA program can do that for you.
Confirmation is important but not essential as part of your admission to the Church. It can be postponed until the next time the bishop is administering Confirmation in your parish. Or the priest who admits you into the Church can seek permission to confirm you other than at the Easter Vigil. (Any Catholic priest has the power to confirm, but not the authority; he must receive permission from his bishop to confirm at any time other than the Easter Vigil.)
My suggestion is that you go to the other parish and ask them how they think you should proceed. But David's response was not incorrect; there is much value in patience. Perhaps through your knowledge you might be able to help your own parish to catechize others. Maybe your husband will see your commitment and decide to participate.
You also didn't mention your children's ages. Can they participate in RCIA? Does your parish offer RCIC (Rite of Christian Initiation of Children)? Would they be interested in starting one?
There are many options, based on the rules set by your own diocesan bishop and the pastors of the churches involved. You can also discuss it with the RCIA office in your diocese (in my small diocese, RCIA is handled by the Office of Worship and the Department of Religious Education).
God be with you, and we look forward to welcoming you into the Church. Meanwhile, you are welcomed here.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1805 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 10:00 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:My suggestion is that you go to the other parish and ask them how they think you should proceed. But David's response was not incorrect; there is much value in patience.
For the record, I was mentioning options and points of view, not directly counseling patience. I believe Francis should decide for herself which values are more important based on her individual needs.
David
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CloisterWalkin
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 7 |
| First Name: | francis | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | LCMS, Non-Denominational, RCIA |
| Status: |
Offline
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 10:31 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:
First of all, please let me welcome you to the Coming Home Network. We are happy to have you here with us, and will do our best to answer your questions charitably and honestly. We look forward to having you share your full conversion story with us when you're ready.
Thank you
CloisterWalkin wrote:
Since I am anxious to enter the RCC and I have studied
extensively, is there a reason/need for me to go
through almost 18months (including Inquiry) of RCIA?
No, there is no need. But there may be a reason.
The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults is intended for the unbaptized, unchurched individual who wishes to join the Christian faith through the Catholic Church. However, in the United States, it is almost as common for those previously baptized in other Christian faiths to join the Church through the RCIA. The unbaptized tend to be members of ecclesial communities that do not stress the necessity of water baptism, so they just never get around to it. Many are "bible believers" with no formal church at all prior to joining the Catholic faith. Some are Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, and some are Jews, Ba'hai, Buddhists, or Muslims. In my parish, most of the unbaptized are young (usually teens) who's parents were baptized Catholic but never came to church, and never taught them their faith. Some come to the faith by themselves, others through an awakening by their parents. Most others are spouses of Catholics, some of whom have been active in our parish for years before deciding to officially join the faith.
Our RCIA program lasts 8-9 months. It begins in late August or early September, and most are ready by the Easter Vigil. Because of a lack of personnel, we do have catechumens, candidates for full communion, and even adult candidates for confirmation in the same group, but we handle them quite differently for the Rites and sacraments. If you've already been going for six months, why do they (or you) feel its necessary for you to go through the entire cycle again?
At my parish, you must be in the catechumenate for an entire liturgical year. So, I was in Inquiry from August-January and then I went through the Rite of Acceptance/Welcoming the first Sunday in February. We are now in the Catechumenate and will be meeting every Sunday after we are dismissed from Mass until Easter Vigil 2008.
The RCIA instructions state that candidates for full communion should go through a shorter process than catechumens, based on their own individual needs, and they should be admitted to the Church at a Sunday liturgy other than Easter where they make their profession of faith and receive Eucharist, after having made their first confession. They should be confirmed with the next Confirmation class by the bishop, although a priest can receive permission to confirm for a valid reason. This is the ideal; it normally isn't done this way because of the manpower involved, the lack of volunteers, and the problem with confirming other than at the Easter Vigil.
It is my experience that those who are baptized in other Christian faiths have many more obstacles to overcome than those who are completely unchurched. The unchurched are a blank slate; those coming from other faiths have much misinformation that must be unlearned. There are some who have been ready in short order; most are not. (This is not a judgment at all of your preparation or commitment, just an observation on my part.)
I understand what you are saying here. I did have to struggle with the teaching on the Virgin Mary but was over that before I went to Mass for the first time which was 9 months before I started Inquiry. I tend to look before I leap.:o)Thanks to the Internet, I probably received too much information on my own before my first IRL encounter with the Church
Give your pastor the benefit of the doubt, and assume he has valid reasons for doing things the way he does. Ask his permission to attend the other RCIA program; just tell him it's more convenient to your schedule. You don't technically need permission, but it helps to avoid hard feelings. Of course, the people in the other RCIA program can do that for you.
I will attempt to speak with my pastor but this is a large parish and so I may just have to communicate through my RCIA facilitators
Confirmation is important but not essential as part of your admission to the Church. It can be postponed until the next time the bishop is administering Confirmation in your parish. Or the priest who admits you into the Church can seek permission to confirm you other than at the Easter Vigil. (Any Catholic priest has the power to confirm, but not the authority; he must receive permission from his bishop to confirm at any time other than the Easter Vigil.)
Ok, this is what I don't understand and is probably a very good reason for me to delay entering the Church! I don't have to be confirmed in order to reconcile with the Church? I can receive the Eucharist?
My suggestion is that you go to the other parish and ask them how they think you should proceed. But David's response was not incorrect; there is much value in patience. Perhaps through your knowledge you might be able to help your own parish to catechize others. Maybe your husband will see your commitment and decide to participate.
I have talked at length with the other parish and they have said that they would help me in anyway they possibly could. The class over there meets on a weekday evening which would work out better for me. I went to one of their classes last week and it was wonderful! The teacher is great! I am struggling with leaving my old parish, mainly because I want to be obedient to their rules but it's a hardship on my husband and children.
You also didn't mention your children's ages. Can they participate in RCIA? Does your parish offer RCIC (Rite of Christian Initiation of Children)? Would they be interested in starting one?
They are 12 and 14yrs old and cannot participate in my RCIA. They have gone to two Inquiry meetings (weekday evening)for children but they will be in this for months to come and then they will move on to RCIC if they choose. The older one, a boy, does not like Inquiry because he doesn't fit in with the 8 yr olds in the class he says.
There are many options, based on the rules set by your own diocesan bishop and the pastors of the churches involved. You can also discuss it with the RCIA office in your diocese (in my small diocese, RCIA is handled by the Office of Worship and the Department of Religious Education).
God be with you, and we look forward to welcoming you into the Church. Meanwhile, you are welcomed here.
Thank you for your help. I truly appreciate it! I know God has a plan and a purpose for me and I am confident He will continue to guide and direct my path!
____________________
~There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing.~Archbishop Fulton Sheen
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5101 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 10:53 pm |
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CloisterWalkin wrote: Our RCIA program lasts 8-9 months. It begins in late August or early September, and most are ready by the Easter Vigil. Because of a lack of personnel, we do have catechumens, candidates for full communion, and even adult candidates for confirmation in the same group, but we handle them quite differently for the Rites and sacraments. If you've already been going for six months, why do they (or you) feel its necessary for you to go through the entire cycle again?
At my parish, you must be in the catechumenate for an entire liturgical year. So, I was in Inquiry from August-January and then I went through the Rite of Acceptance/Welcoming the first Sunday in February. We are now in the Catechumenate and will be meeting every Sunday after we are dismissed from Mass until Easter Vigil 2008.
This appears to be an unusually long program, longer than any I have encountered before. That doesn't make it wrong, just unique in my experience.
Thanks to the Internet, I probably received too much information on my own before my first IRL encounter with the Church
Unfortunately, given the nature of the Internet, much of the information out there is wrong. Again, that's not a judgment, just an observation.
Confirmation is important but not essential as part of your admission to the Church. It can be postponed until the next time the bishop is administering Confirmation in your parish. Or the priest who admits you into the Church can seek permission to confirm you other than at the Easter Vigil. (Any Catholic priest has the power to confirm, but not the authority; he must receive permission from his bishop to confirm at any time other than the Easter Vigil.)
Ok, this is what I don't understand and is probably a very good reason for me to delay entering the Church! I don't have to be confirmed in order to reconcile with the Church? I can receive the Eucharist?
I was baptized at the age of 3 months, I received First Eucharist in first grade, and was confirmed in seventh grade. That is the normal progression of the sacraments in the Western Church. (Eastern Churches have different traditions; all three Sacraments of Initiation are normally given in infancy.) Different dioceses will have different rules regarding Confirmation of candidates for full communion, but no, it is not required to be confirmed in order to join the Church or to receive Eucharist. However, it is encouraged and is the normal procedure. Some Catholics sadly are never confirmed.
I am struggling with leaving my old parish, mainly because I want to be obedient to their rules but it's a hardship on my husband and children.
That by itself is enough of a reason to pursue RCIA in the other parish. It doesn't mean you'd be leaving your own parish, just participating in RCIA elsewhere because it is more convenient. I have had many people participate in RCIA in my parish because of convenience, family, or because they knew me.
You also didn't mention your children's ages. Can they participate in RCIA? Does your parish offer RCIC (Rite of Christian Initiation of Children)? Would they be interested in starting one?
They are 12 and 14yrs old and cannot participate in my RCIA. They have gone to two Inquiry meetings (weekday evening)for children but they will be in this for months to come and then they will move on to RCIC if they choose. The older one, a boy, does not like Inquiry because he doesn't fit in with the 8 yr olds in the class he says.
I do understand that feeling. Perhaps the other parish can be more accommodating, and that is another valid reason to pursue RCIA there.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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