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BriarRose
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| Joined: | Fri Jul 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | BriarRose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | LCMS;RCIA student&Candidate for conversion |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 01:41 am |
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I just found out that the Lutheran church in which I was baptized, out in California[I haven't lived out there for around 30 years] has been turned into a Lutheran social services office-type building--I finally was given the name of the Assistant to the Bishop, and I was told by someone in his office, that, because my old Church is no longer being used as such, the record of my baptism, in 1968, is contained in one written line, in what was referred to as 'the red book'.
I waited for a return call from the office of the Bishop's assistant, and if he/she doesn't call me back soon, I will call them back--but, will a photocopy of their entry in that book be acceptable enough proof of my baptism? If not, I will need to get in touch with my godparents, and see if they have any photos that were taken that day--if not, would a written statement from them be acceptable?
Thank you.
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The Blessed Mother said to Bernadette during the 16th Apparition, at Massabieille, on 3/25/1858: "Que Soy Era Immaculada Conceptiou."
Pax Christi,
Briar
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 08:29 am |
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BriarRose wrote: will a photocopy of their entry in that book be acceptable enough proof of my baptism? If not, I will need to get in touch with my godparents, and see if they have any photos that were taken that day--if not, would a written statement from them be acceptable?
It's up to your pastor and diocese, but normally any evidence, including a letter from the bishop or from someone who was there, is sufficient.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BriarRose
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| Joined: | Fri Jul 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | BriarRose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | LCMS;RCIA student&Candidate for conversion |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 09:41 am |
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Ok--thanks, Rick.
____________________
The Blessed Mother said to Bernadette during the 16th Apparition, at Massabieille, on 3/25/1858: "Que Soy Era Immaculada Conceptiou."
Pax Christi,
Briar
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 08:37 pm |
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Ok, Rick, you said a photo is acceptable in some cases, right? Well, I just found the photo of me in a white robe, with the pastor on one side and my husband on the other, standing in the Jordan River in Israel. Yet, this picture was taken just prior to my being immersed in the river. I do have additional pictures of my baptism somewhere in the house. (would require lots of searching though) So, is a picture such as this one acceptable proof?
Also, I mentioned on another thread that I was baptized prior to the above Baptism in a Baptist Church. I called the pastor and informed him that I had been baptized in his church a number of years ago. I asked him if the church baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he replied "Yes." That was a relief until I received a call back from the secretary a few days ago that they cannot find any record of me being baptized there. Now whether they are telling the truth, I cannot say. They might feel as though they would be participating in a grave sin by sending my baptism record to the Catholic Church, thus allowing me to become a Catholic. They are very anti-Catholic, as I attested in my other post. The pastor tried his best to convince me that the CC is a "corrupt" church along with many other insults.
So, this is the gist. I know I was baptized according to the proper form and using the proper matter and that I was in the right disposition while being baptized in the Baptist Church. Yet, they say they have no record of my baptism. So....that amounts to nothing.
Then, I have the photo (and others somewhere in my home) of my baptism in the Jordan River in Israel. This pastor attended both Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary (for his doctorate). I know that the DTS believes in baptizing using the Trinitarian method. Yet, my concern is this. What if I contact this pastor, which I can easily do since he works for Zola Levitt Ministries and is a pastor at a well known church in Dallas, and he is hesitant to send the information? He, too, may feel that in signing his "John Hancock" in affirmation of a legitimate baptism that he is committing a wrong, thereby giving permission for me to become a Catholic.
Now what, I ask? I am back to square one. I do not want to be baptized a third time. And I don't want to enter RCIA as a Catechuman. The reason is two-fold. First of all, it is because the parish has Catechumans leave the Mass right after the homily. They do this so that the RCIA Director can discuss the homily and scripture readings with the Catechumans. They allow the Candidates (baptized Christians) to remain for the entire Mass. When I asked why they do it this way, the RCIA Director said that the program is geared in such a way that they expect the baptized Christians should already understand the homily and have a fair understanding of scripture already. On the other hand, Catechumans are viewed as those who have little or no understanding of scripture and need to be taught scripture, and instructed as to what the teaching of the homily is.
I would not "feel" right nor would it be appropriate for me to sit with Catechumans. I have attended a Wesleyan Bible College, have taught Sunday School, memorized scripture over the course of many years, and have already been baptized properly. Yet, I fear that because of a "technicality" that I may have to sit with Catechumans when I should be with the Candidates.
I do intend to speak with the priest tomorrow about this. Father has been instrumental in helping me along my Catholic journey. He has even commented to me that "I understand Catholic teaching better than many Catholics." Could it be that he might just be willing to baptize me "conditionally?" Is there anything that I should ask him when I meet with him tomorrow?
I pray that this matter can be resolved.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 10:38 pm |
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| Would it help if the priest writes or calls one of your former pastors? My church offered to do that, however I called on my own and the baptist church looked it up and wrote a letter on their letterhead that the priest accepted. Surely they wouldn't lie about such a serious matter. Some of the candidates I was with were annoyed that we had to show proof (that was acceptable to our priest) of our baptism. However, he had to make sure that he was proceeding correctly and that the confirmation and first communion were valid. Maybe the pastor of your second baptism would send a letter for you? Or was that one valid since the first one was valid. This must be a problem for a lot of people every year. I have heard of parishes requiring catechumens to leave after the homily but I've never seen it happen. Do they announce it so that everyone who needs to leave just gets up and goes out? Do they not get to say the creed, or sing the Sanctus? Or the Our Father? It seems they are being denied the very parts of the mass that would draw them closer to the church, the parts that make us catholic. Last edited on Thu Aug 9th, 2007 11:01 pm by Credo Catholic
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 01:01 am |
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Darlene wrote: Ok, Rick, you said a photo is acceptable in some cases, right? Well, I just found the photo of me in a white robe, with the pastor on one side and my husband on the other, standing in the Jordan River in Israel. Yet, this picture was taken just prior to my being immersed in the river. I do have additional pictures of my baptism somewhere in the house. (would require lots of searching though) So, is a picture such as this one acceptable proof?
It's up to your pastor based on rules set by your bishop. There are no hard and fast rules as to what is acceptable and what is not. What you require is "acceptable proof" and the officials of your diocese (the bishop or his designee, normally the pastor) decide what is "acceptable".
They might feel as though they would be participating in a grave sin by sending my baptism record to the Catholic Church, thus allowing me to become a Catholic.
There is no need to tell them the reason you are requesting a letter attesting to your baptism. Simply tell them you need it. If they ask why, tell them you are assembling records in case you ever need them, and you want to have it. They could come in handy some day for your heirs.
What if I contact this pastor, which I can easily do since he works for Zola Levitt Ministries and is a pastor at a well known church in Dallas, and he is hesitant to send the information? He, too, may feel that in signing his "John Hancock" in affirmation of a legitimate baptism that he is committing a wrong, thereby giving permission for me to become a Catholic.
Again, the reason you want it is none of his business.
the parish has Catechumans leave the Mass right after the homily. They do this so that the RCIA Director can discuss the homily and scripture readings with the Catechumans.
That is how it is supposed to be done. Prior to the revisions of the liturgy under Pope Paul VI, when the title "Liturgy of the Word" was adopted, the portion of the mass through the homily was known as the "Mass of the Catechumens". The unbaptized were at least theoretically not permitted to stay after the Creed. This practice began in the days of the apostles when those studying to become Christians were escourted out and not allowed to stay for the "mysteries".
Could it be that he might just be willing to baptize me "conditionally?" Is there anything that I should ask him when I meet with him tomorrow?
Actually, under the "rules" he is required to baptize you conditionally and privately. Since you say you were previously baptized, you are not to be baptized at the Easter Vigil. If he decides that your baptism may not be valid, you must be baptized conditionally prior to the Easter Vigil (in a private ceremony, that is, not in front of the congregation), and then receive the Sacrament of Penance, and then make a profession of faith and stand for Confirmation as a Candidate for Full Communion at the Easter Vigil or when the bishop comes to confer Confirmation on the "regular" Confirmation candidates.
That's the way it's supposed to be done.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 04:33 am |
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Hi
I've been reading, praying and thinking about this thread all day now. I have not quite figured out what it is I want to express about RCIA and if I will be able to properly state it. Most of all I want everyone to know that my coments are just some things that have been on my mind for this thread and not meant to be harsh, pushy or any ill thoughts or intent. Im just not that great explaining things sometimes and sometimes they come out wrong or sound mean. They are not intended to.
When I had fianlly decided that Yes! I would go ahead and try to attend RCIA. It was only 2 months prior to my sons dealth. I was a broken, wounded and very frail woman. My family was in complete disaster mode, Our home felt like Satan had picked it up along with our lives, Shook it very hard, and then dumped us & our life out all of us broken, bleeding and wounded as much as Job and possibly even more, as we did not already have God in our lives at this time. He was just a consideration in my mind & heart.
At the time, I'd not returned to work yet and had only managed to get up in the AM and wonder around the house dragging my blanket and pillow in tears and sobbing. Just dressing and driving to the store seemed to be asking to much of me and if I went, that was all I did and could not muster the strength to even make a second stop.
I had grown up baptist, read the bible and memorized all the scripture passages as any good baptist would naturally do. I had attended bible studies during my younger adult life and thought that I really did not need much teaching. (So I thought) I was not in any frame of mind or in the position that I wanted to spend the next 9 months committed to a RCIA program. I really struggled with this and was adament about not wanting to do this. I tried to get any way out of it I could. I had already spent 4 months with a group of sister's in their catechism program and I kept thinking that if I were to try and join any other church, they'd welcome me with open arms and in my condition just have me fill out some inrolememt papers or something and bam, I'd be a member.
I know that many of you are far more educated personally and professionally. So don't think that I'd ever consider myself nearly as knowledgable as any of you.
There is a whole lot more to RCIA than meets the eye or than what is on the pamphlet you'll most likely pick up in the church vestibule with all the dates, functions, and topics for each night. It's far more than Doctrines, scripture & Dogmas, having knowledge of these thing are very good and most of you have done a marvelous job and have a great head start on the entire RCIA experience.
Your cooperation in the RCIA program is the very beginning of your life as a Catholic. Your not just switching churches because pastor (who ever) did not preach the scripture as you agreed with, understood or what ever. Your joining a world wide family of the body of Christ the savior of the world. His church is 2000 yrs old a treasure that with the care of the Holy Spirit has handed down to you the most amazing timeless gifts and mysteries that this world has not known and many may not ever know. The lord has very carefully led you on this journey and you may have struggled thus far and you may continue along with more struggles as well. You have made it with the guidence of the Holy Spirit (Not because you have a wall full of degrees) you have been given the grace to walk forward with many road blocks and even with the full knowledge that you may loose friends, family, etc in the process. He has chosen you specially and given you graces to follow him in Obediance and Loving Trust.
My very first lesson at becoming a catholic was not only the surrender of my mind & will to the church that the Lord had begun in Jerusalem 2000 yrs ago. It was my surrender and obediance to the very special pastor that the Lord sent here to our very cozy parish in town. It was very hard. The shepard he sent me was ten yrs younger than I. I cried and wanted to throw a fit in my car on the way home. I prayed and I prayed about this, The lord knew full well that this was going to be difficult for me. But the message I got was that my obediance to father was in direct connection with my obediance to Our Lord. If I could not follow fathers wishes and instruction? then how was I going to manage to follow Gods instruction for the rest of my life. He sent and established the priest hood for us all. They are not just common men that stand up and teach us and preach the word because they decided one day that they would go to school and learn Scripture and pastor a church. They are not just normal every day guys who make up the rules. They are direct decendant of St. Peter. The very first Pope and through apostolic succession and holy orders they and all these teaching's have been carefully and specially preserved and handed down through the ages all with the capabilities to bring the very Body, Blood, Soul and divinity to us. They have been very specially chosen and became priest to teach and instruct us. I believe that our first lesson is Obediance! Surrender to the church and the Pastors that Chist has sent us. If you want to Obey Christ? Then Obey his pastors! If they think they would like you to join through the RCIA process then listen to them. You will make friends and begin bonds for life. You'll also be fulfilled with the fellowship that you have previously known and are very comfortable with. Protestants often complain that they don't have the fellow ship that they would at their previous congregations. The RCIA process as I understand from all over the US is very similar as the norm of entrance into the Holy Roman Church. The initiation process has been tried and tested through the ages. Some programs are set up better than others, but nevertheless, surrender of your own will and following the instructions in faith, trust and obediance to your pastors instruction for you at this time. Let it be your very first of many lessons of obediance.
The Unity of the Catholic church was not sustained because they made a class to fit each individuals needs or changed their processes and practices to meet the personal needs of each individual. (I understand that their are people in very special situations that require a special compensation, Are you one of those people?) The unity begins for you in the initiaion process. And this unity will help to teach others through your own actions along the way too. It will follow you through your hopefully many blessed years in the Holy Roman Church and it will allow for the best world wide family to stay in unity in teaching and structure. Just an add on from a prayer request that I made to the lord along this line's of unity. My answer to the prayer was that "I could either be part of the problem or I could choose to be part of the solution in the devastating separation and disunity that we have in christianity today".
If you are so well learned and have developed great skills in scripture, doctrines and church teaching. Then please do bring your gifts with you to class, You will be a very wonderful asset to your class mates. Your knowledge will bring about more questions and get fuller answers for those less fortunate or less prepared in their past lives than you. God wants you to share the knowledge that he has allowed you to receive. And if his will is through this process? will you argue or will you bow your head and say " Your will, Not Mine Lord"?
At my very first Rcia class the lord answered my many and long troubled years of prayers through a private Revelation ( for a lack of a better description) of my own. He revealed to me that the Catholic chuch was his church and I was in shock. I had went to my first class with the intention that I was certain that I would hear something that their was no way I could except the churches teaching and I would have tried as I had promised some well meaning friends and that would be it for me. Well the Lord cured that situation in the parking lot before I even went inside. At the second class, I had prayed all week and was still troubled with my old baptist teachings and just the normal excess baggage of thoughts in incorrect teachings of the RCC that I thought I knew. So when I showed up in the parking lot, I had decided that I was checking my baggage at the door and going in with my mind wide up, my eyes wide open with the wonderment and excitement of a child.
If you feel that your over qualified for this most wonderful beginning that the lord has led you to. I would seriously give it some very long and hard consideration and prayer. He may have other plans for you that he's not revealed yet. Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Not many children feel over qualified to be a candidate or catechumen. I was a 40 yr old catechumen that thought I need no further instruction. HA, that's a laugh. I had been previously baptized in a incorrect formula. I actually am very happy that it turned out that way. Experiencing baptism as an adult, is like the blind man that Jesus opened his eyes and he could finally see. It was an amazing blessing to be baptized by a catholic priest. the intense experience for me of the holy spirit was incredible. just like my own eye's, mind and heart were opened to things that I'd never experienced in my life. There just are some teachings that cannot come from books or speaking. People have to experience them.
I also wanted to share something that father has posted on our parish web-site that explained about reception of the Eucharist. the who's whats and whys. Daniel, It's not meant to bagger you or pick at you. I think everyone has already explained the teaching very nicely and I hope your at peace and understand. I just wanted to share this link with you for further resourse from another parish. [url=Who Can Receive?]Who Can Receive?[/url] The entire document can be found at the link.
Who Can Receive the Eucharist?
Catholics who have received their First Sacraments, who are not conscious of grave sin, and who have fasted for at least one hour are encouraged to devoutly and frequently receive Holy Communion.
This is very important:
To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion. (CCC 1385)
Translation: taking this Sacrament with serious, unconfessed sin on the soul brings condemnation rather than salvation!
Why Can't Non-Catholics Receive Holy Communion?
Contrary to popular belief, the reason non-Catholics are asked to refrain from receiving Holy Communion is not because the Church wants anyone to feel excluded. The Church, in fact, has a certain responsibility to non-Catholics.
Because what makes us Catholic is our belief of Jesus’ True Presence in the Eucharist, it would be a disservice to allow non-Catholics to partake in this extraordinary union when they do not know or understand that which they are joining in. Why? Because they would not have been able to properly prepare themselves.
I really pray that I did not offend any of you, I just wanted to try and express and share some valuable lessons that I have learned along the way and this long, exhausting and most blessed journey of life that I've been so amazed and learned so much and still have so much to learn.
It's hard and you may feel it is uneaded, but please allow the lord to show you the new and beautiful wonders he wants to share with his children. When all is over and done, You'll hopefully really look back on the experience with loving appreciation as I do. If not, then chalk it up and pray you learned what ever the lord had in mind for you. Either way, you'll not go wrong. 
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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JasPax
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:17 pm |
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Dear Betty,
Good for you with your comments about the value of RCIA. Many folks early on have difficulty with the length of the program, but I have yet to meet someone who didn't understand, after the fact, how valuable it was.
As you said, becoming Catholic is not just switching to a "new" denomination. It is a lifetime experience.
Dear Darlene, I am sorry about your experience with the baptismal record from the Baptist church in Cleveland. I have done a lot of genealogical research, part of which involved obtaining baptismal records from protestant churches-many Baptist. I got records that were 200 years old from frontier Baptist churches that at the time, were only log cabins. I assure you, they do keep records.
But it looks as tho' that door is closed. I suggest you follow the guidance of your priest. He has your interest at heart.
Whatever you must do, it will be worth it, and you will agree with that next EASTER!
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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Johnnie o
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 12:33 am |
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Dear Betty.
Nicely put.. it's not just a class, it's an ExPERIRNCE!!
I tried to relay that sentiment in an earlier post... when after all those classes, at the Easter Vigil there is nothing like a Church full of people, who are there not to obseve but to experince 'YOUR Experience' of accepting The Holy Euchariist for the first time. Its emotional, its spiritual, and it is physical. I never went to an Easter Vigil til three yrs. ago.... Today I don't wana miss one again.
God bless,
Johnnie o
____________________
All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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Juan
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 10:04 am |
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I can understand you post but I am trying to understand something about communion or being in communion with the church. I don't know if this is the right forum for this so if it is not please let me know.
In Acts chapter 2 once St. Peter preached the Gospel to the people on the day of Pentecost and challenged the people to come to Jesus, those who believed were immediately baptized and "added" to the church, in fact over three thousand were added that day.
That is true.
Please don't think I am challenging the RCC on this I am converting to the church but I need to know why one is required to go through this lenthly process when that was not the case in the bible.
The Bible does not record every single thing that ever happened. However, we get an indication that not all were immediately admitted into the Church even in the first years:
Acts Of Apostles 26
20 But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.
However, even if that verse does not prove that a period of time transpired between catechesis and baptism, the bottom line is that Jesus Christ gave the Church the keys and the Church decided early on that instruction in the faith was important BEFORE baptism:
The "New" Is Old: RCIA History in a Nutshell Early Church (first to third centuries): Persons wanting to become Christian live with a small Christian community to learn their way of life. The structured "apprenticeship" of the Christian in training becomes known as the catechumenate. Fifth Century: The catechumenate begins to dissolve because Christianity had been legalized in 315 A.D. and now large numbers of people are becoming Christians. Infant Baptism becomes the norm. Twentieth Century: Revival of catechumenate in Africa and France. Second Vatican Council, 1963-65; Council calls for reinstating the catechumenate. Post-Vatican Council II: 1966-Provisional ritual distributed by Rome; 1972-Official promulgation of the RCIA; 1974-Provisional English translation available; 1988-U.S. bishops mandate implementation of RCIA From: Institute Resource Packet, North American Forum on the Catechumenate, 2000 http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0502.asp
http://www.camdenrcia.org/history.htm
I am going to check on this with the Ante-Nicean Fathers and come back to what I find on this matter.
Peace,
catholicdan.
The anteNicene Fathers are very highly regarded. But only the Catholic Church is infallible. I think you will find that the anteNicene Fathers would be obedient to Her authority.
Sincerely,
Juan
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Juan
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 10:06 am |
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Rick and Johnnie,
Maybe I missed it, did either of you explain the difference between a candidate and a catechumen?
Juan
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Juan
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 10:55 am |
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Annie is talking about the way the "rules" for RCIA are followed around the country, and she is correct. Most parishes/dioceses do not follow the process as it is designed. Instead, they group candidates and catechumens together improperly for convenience. It's not a matter of who is admitted and who isn't, but of following the proper procedures as designed by the Church.
I think its a matter of your and Annie's perspective. It is not that candidates are lumped together with catechumens as you and Annie perceive. The way I see it, catechumens are brought into the process with candidates IF they have proved to have a certain level of competence in Christianity. The priest or whoever is in charge has decided that the unbaptized has lived with the community long enough to enter into the Rite of Christian Initiation.
From what I've noticed, in our community, 99% of those in RCIA are previously baptized OR unbaptized children of baptized adults. In other words, regardless of the age of these unbaptized children of other Christians, they are familiar with the Bible and with some aspects of Christianity. Remember, there are many sects of Christianity who do not believe in infant baptism.
In other words, the RCIA, in every parish I've attended, is designed for the candidate. Catechumens, unbaptized nonChristians, are the ones that sometimes fall through the cracks.
Ideally, candidates and catechumens would go through entirely different processes.
They do. In fact, I don't think that there is really in existence anywhere, a process for the totally unititiated nonChristian catechumen. That would mean that we would have to get off our duffs and go out and evangelize to Hindus and Muslims and bring the interested back to our parishes and have a process for their catechumenate. I've yet to see such a thing in any parish in the US.
Normally, they convert with the help of their personal family, friends and acquaintances and then request to enter the RCIA at a Parish of their choice. In other words, their actual catecumenate is unofficial and private. By the time they come to the Church for RCIA, they are essentially candidates.
RCIA is for catechumens.
Not according to the Catechism. RCIA is also for candidates in order to complete their initiation.
Those who are already partially initiated by being validly baptized in another Christian faith should be brought through a different, individually designed program, and brought into the Church at a time other than the Easter Vigil.
I disagree. The RCIA program is perfectly designed for the partially initiated. It is the unitiated who will have more trouble if they haven't already been partially educated on their own.
You mentioned that it is up to the RCIA director to determine who is a catechumen, and that is not incorrect. Unfortunately, the way the RCIA program is implemented in most parishes, the distinction is unclear.
Because we have very few strict "catechumens" in this country. We don't have "Hindus" for instance, converting in flocks. The few that do convert have already become familiar with the community and have had some contact with Christianity. That is why they convert.
If returning Catholics and Christians of other faiths participate in the same classes, that is different from the Rite itself. The Rite refers to the liturgical processes that are part of the initiation process (Rite of Acceptance, Rite of Election, Scrutinies, Rite of Baptism, Rite of Confirmation, etc.). Those should be separate and distinct for catechumens and candidates, regardless of who sits in a class together.
Why Rick? Is this just your opinion?
Sincerely,
Juan
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 12:28 pm |
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| I don't want to disagree with anyone here because it doesn't seem clear exactly what the original purpose of RCIA was. However, as a candidate, I learned so much that I didn't even know I didn't know. And I wouldn't trade that beautiful Easter Vigil I participated in for any other week in the year. No one who went through that regretted it, it was a tremendous blessing to us and our parish and friends and family.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 04:17 pm |
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Juan wrote: RCIA is for catechumens.
Not according to the Catechism. RCIA is also for candidates in order to complete their initiation.
I don't know what Catechism you're reading, Juan.
1232 The second Vatican Council restored for the Latin Church "the catechumenate for adults, comprising several distinct steps." The rites for these stages are to be found in the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA). The Council also gives permission that: "In mission countries, in addition to what is furnished by the Christian tradition, those elements of initiation rites may be admitted which are already in use among some peoples insofar as they can be adapted to the Christian ritual."
1233 Today in all the rites, Latin and Eastern, the Christian initiation of adults begins with their entry into the catechumenate and reaches its culmination in a single celebration of the three sacraments of initiation: Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist. In the Eastern rites the Christian initiation of infants also begins with Baptism followed immediately by Confirmation and the Eucharist, while in the Roman rite it is followed by years of catechesis before being completed later by Confirmation and the Eucharist, the summit of their Christian initiation.
These are the only two paragraphs in the entire Catechism in which the phrase "Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults" appears. As you can clearly see, the "Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults" is the celebration of three sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist. Any means by which any person is brought into the Church without experiencing all three sacraments (Baptism, Confirmation/Chrismation, Eucharist) for the first time in a single celebration is not the "Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults". The process of preparation is not the "Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults". The process has been adapted in the United States to permit the ceremonies for Candidates for Full Communion with the Catholic Church to be combined with RCIA, but that does not make it part of the actual "Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults" which is for Catechumens only and involves the reception of three sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation/Chrismation, and Eucharist in a single celebration. Is this clear enough?
As used in paragraph 1232, the italicized phrase indicates the title of the ritual. Like the Roman Missal, rituals often include instructions on how the rituals are to be conducted including preliminary rites. For example, the Rite of Christian Funerals includes the rites for Wake Services, transmitting the body, and burial at the cemetery. However, the inclusion of these other rites in the book does not make them part of the "Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults". And preparatory classes are not part of the rite either. Baptismal seminars are not part of the "Rite of Baptism for Infants"; marriage preparation meetings are not part of the "Rite of Matrimony"; religious education classes are not part of the "Rite of Confirmation".
Candidates for Full Communion are often included in various ceremonies with Catechumens, and they may be included in combined classes, but this is done for convenience. The "Rite of Acceptance" on the First Sunday of Advent is for Catechumens only. It is often combined with the "Rite of Welcome" for Candidates. The "Rite of Election" on the First Sunday of Lent is often combined with the "Call to Continuing Conversion" for Candidates. This is done for convenience of the parish. It does not change the Rites themselves. The ritual does clearly state that in all cases, Catechumens and Candidates are to be clearly distinguished when combined ceremonies are conducted. Unfortunately, that does not normally happen.
And no, this is not my personal opinion.
Last edited on Sat Aug 11th, 2007 04:23 pm by CajunRick
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Rick Luquette
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 04:42 pm |
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catholicdan wrote: In Acts chapter 2 once St. Peter preached the Gospel to the people on the day of Pentecost and challenged the people to come to Jesus, those who believed were immediately baptized and "added" to the church, in fact over three thousand were added that day. Please don't think I am challenging the RCC on this I am converting to the church but I need to know why one is required to go through this lenthly process when that was not the case in the bible. I am going to check on this with the Ante-Nicean Fathers and come back to what I find on this matter.
The Catholic Church teaches that the apostles were taught perfectly by Jesus, who handed them the entire "Deposit of Faith". Peter was in possession of this knowledge, infused into him by the Holy Spirit. The apostles passed this information on, which is why we consider the writings of the Early Church Fathers so critical in understanding what the apostles learned from Jesus. Subsequent generations were not taught by teachers as capable, so they referred back to the early teachings. Those written by the apostles were considered inspired; others such as the writings of Linus, Clement, Ignatius, etc., were considered important but not inspired, and were used to help interpret the writings of the apostles.
When Peter preached on Pentecost, he was just filled with the knowledge infused into him by the Holy Spirit. His ability to teach was supernatural; he was literally filled to overflowing with grace.
The apostles continued to convert people on the spot, and many other disciples present in the Upper Room did as well. However, no one else was ever able to absorb or convey that knowledge so completely. It takes us a long time to even imperfectly instruct others. And so within a couple of generations, the process of preparation for Christian Initiation went from a day to years. Only infants were baptized immediately, because they would receive their instruction from their parents in a process that would indeed take years.
If ever Peter returns with the apostles and the knowledge and power infused into them on Pentecost, we'll be able to go back to immediate conversion. Otherwise, we weak and imperfect humans will have to spread the process out over time.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Johnnie o
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 04:06 pm |
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hello Juan,
The Cathloic Church is not a Binle only religion, Bacck in Acts. most converts were Jews, who understood the Law, and about the coming f the Messiah, and the Holy spirit was working in a very BIG way, today you don't see people dropping dead because they didn't keep a full promise to the Church either.
the Church went underground til Constantine, and even after him.
gentiles/pagans needed to be taught about he Messiah,
1 Corinthians 1: 23, But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:
1 Corinthians 1 :18, For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2 :14, But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.
When you apply for a job, even though you may have experience, the The manager will show you how he wants things done.
There is a lot of anti-catholic material out there, RCIA, helps those with experience, just what the teachings of the Church Are, and helps despel any "Rumors or gossip' you had heard or brought up with.
For Protestants it is all too easy to Change your Church for one reason or another... You Just attend.
Catholic Church is a way of Life, the Eucharist is the Culmination of our teaching...
We have much respect for For the Presence of God, In the Eucharist, and the tachings of the early Church just to give it to anyone, without full Understanding...
RCIA may be in its present form relatively new, howevr its practice goes back for centuries.
God bless,
Johnnie o
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All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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