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brian
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Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 07:47 pm |
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so we are starting phase two of RCIA that has some cermemony or ritual on November 29 for those of us wishing to continue. Those who have not been baptized will have to leave mass earlier before the liturgy of the eucharist to learn more about the faith in some special way.
Is this done this way in all the parishes? I sort of understand this and where the idea comes from, but it seems a little weird since these members have been clebrating the entire mass with us for several weeks now already. I would think in the early church that the table was kept secret for many reasons, but i doubt those same reasons exist today, so it seems weird to keep this going. but I think that this is good in some way to have a way to make sure the unbaptized are truly ready to go through with it.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 07:59 pm |
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brian wrote: so we are starting phase two of RCIA that has some cermemony or ritual on November 29 for those of us wishing to continue. Those who have not been baptized will have to leave mass earlier before the liturgy of the eucharist to learn more about the faith in some special way.
Is this done this way in all the parishes?
It is the ideal, but it does not take place in all parishes. Each parish has to adapt the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults to its own needs.
I sort of understand this and where the idea comes from, but it seems a little weird since these members have been clebrating the entire mass with us for several weeks now already. I would think in the early church that the table was kept secret for many reasons, but i doubt those same reasons exist today, so it seems weird to keep this going. but I think that this is good in some way to have a way to make sure the unbaptized are truly ready to go through with it.
The purpose is to give them additional instruction in the Word as presented at mass, including the priest's homily. In the early Church, the catechumens (unbaptized) were permitted to stay through the Liturgy of the Word, which is also called the Mass of the Catechumens. They did not participate in the "mysteries" which is another name for "sacraments" until after their baptism, so the Easter Vigil was the first time they even saw the consecration take place. Times are different, of course, but the Church reinstituted RCIA, including dismissal of the catechumens, as part of an overall effort to return as much as possible to the practices of the early Church.
Dismissal catechesis also makes the RCIA process visible to the parish family, and increases their appreciation of the Eucharist. Watching the catechumens get up and leave should cause them to think about what they are allowed to attend, and hopefully help them go grow in understanding and adoration of the Eucharist. At least that has been expressed to me several times by parishioners.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 12:07 am |
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brian wrote: so we are starting phase two of RCIA that has some cermemony or ritual on November 29 for those of us wishing to continue. Those who have not been baptized will have to leave mass earlier before the liturgy of the eucharist to learn more about the faith in some special way. Hi Brian: When I went through RCIA 3 yrs ago, When we were dismissed, Father called us forward, Gave us all a blessing, Asked the whole congregations to join him in a prayer for us. Then we were excused to another room right outside of the sanctuary where one of the member's who are knowlegable, devoted and more mature in their faith would go over a worksheet with questions and such about the days reading's, homily, etc. then let us ask any questions and discuss it.
Is this done this way in all the parishes? I sort of understand this and where the idea comes from, but it seems a little weird since these members have been clebrating the entire mass with us for several weeks now already. I would think in the early church that the table was kept secret for many reasons, but i doubt those same reasons exist today, so it seems weird to keep this going. but I think that this is good in some way to have a way to make sure the unbaptized are truly ready to go through with it. I don't know if it's done in every parish, I do know that it is done in all the parishes in our southern deanery of our diocese. All the priest in our area take turns teaching the RCIA classes in all the other church's. It provides us with getting to know all the priest in the area. I enjoyed that. I will admit when we first started the dismissal masses it made me feel strange or maybe like an outcast. But that was not the purpose or intention at all. All of the rights or rituals that I didn't fully understand or I questioned strangely made sense after my baptism. I had a wonderful experience after baptism & first holy communion. I seemed to understand scripture and everything differently, Just like my eyes and ears were opened to understanding that I'd never had before. I hope you enjoy your RCIA process, At Easter Vigil everything just comes together. God Bless you on your journey. I'm excited for you! Betty
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 09:07 am |
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Greetings Brian,
Your comments remind me of how I felt when I started my Journey into the Church. I had studied on my own for over 4 years before I started RCIA and I thought I was ready to participate fully in the Church. However, as I worked my way through RCIA, including the Sunday morning study group, I came to realize that participating in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist meant much more than I had been taught since childhood, in another church. I now feel that the meaning of the Holy Eucharist is soimportant and central to my beliefs that if I were invited by a friend or relative, to attend a special program in my old church and, during my visit, the had what they call "a rememberance of the last supper", I could not participate in that service.
BTW, even after 4+ years of personal study, I learned a lot in the RCIA process. I have been helping out in RCIA since my acceptance into the Church and I am still learning more each year.
I wish you the best in your Journey. 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 12:14 pm |
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BodRod wrote:
BTW, even after 4+ years of personal study, I learned a lot in the RCIA process. I have been helping out in RCIA since my acceptance into the Church and I am still learning more each year.
I'm glad you mentioned that. As a cradle Catholic, I attended Catholic schools for 12 years, spent some time in the seminary, and have studied the Catholic faith formally and informally for 40 years. Last year I got a Masters' Certification in Pastoral Studies from a Catholic university, and I'm still learning more each year. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.
One of the primary advantages of RCIA classes is the building of community. That is incredibly important in the Catholic faith. Home study courses just don't fill the same needs.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 12:19 am |
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Brian,
Newly this year we are also dismissing the RCIA people before the Eucharist part of the Mass. Yes it does seem silly in one sense since these people have attended the whole mass previously. I think though it does allow the priest to bless them specifically and also for the congregation to get to know them so they can be supportive.
On a practical note it allows them to0 get out of church not much later than if they had attended mass. Last year when I went through it, I was at church from 9:15am until almost 2 pm on Sunday which meant everyone missed lunch including a baby around a year old. No child care was provided so my older kids had to watch the baby and amuse themselves for a couple hours instead of having lunch. It was very stressful.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 02:18 am |
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brian wrote: so we are starting phase two of RCIA that has some cermemony or ritual on November 29 for those of us wishing to continue. Those who have not been baptized will have to leave mass earlier before the liturgy of the eucharist to learn more about the faith in some special way.
Is this done this way in all the parishes? I sort of understand this and where the idea comes from, but it seems a little weird since these members have been clebrating the entire mass with us for several weeks now already. I would think in the early church that the table was kept secret for many reasons, but i doubt those same reasons exist today, so it seems weird to keep this going. but I think that this is good in some way to have a way to make sure the unbaptized are truly ready to go through with it.
Hi, Brian. I don’t have a lot to add; there are good answers here, but as a “Cradle Catholic” I just wanted to add another observation…
"Those who have not been baptized will have to leave mass earlier before the liturgy of the eucharist to learn more about the faith in some special way. Is this done this way in all the parishes? “
No, it isn’t – unfortunately, I might add. In my parish we don’t do this anymore, since our present pastor arrived about 12 years ago or so. All of our priests before used to, though, and so do all the other parishes around that I know of. Frankly, I think it’s a darned shame that we don’t have this practice anymore in our parish.
From where I sit, when I’m in a parish (and I miss it in ours!) where the catechumens leave after the Liturgy of the Word, I am able to see them as they stand; I am able to pray for them if/when the priest asks us to assist in praying for them as they are on the journey; I am reminded that this is something important by the ritual and ceremony of it – and that there are people who have not yet been able to experience the treasure that we have in the Catholic Church, and thus I am reminded to be thankful that I have, and I can pray in thanksgiving that these persons have found their way home and will soon be full-fledged members; I am being introduced to these potential new members of our community by seeing them week after week as they stand and leave. I saw it mentioned in one of the posts that there was a certain sense of embarrassment, that the catechumen felt almost as if they were an outsider. But from where I sit, though it may be a source of embarrassment to the catechumen (no one really likes being in the limelight as they’re sort of being asked to leave), for those of us in the pews, we don’t see the catechumens in this way, and in fact, for myself, I am glad to see them singled out. Then, if I should see them somewhere else, or run into them after Mass, by recognizing them from seeing their faces on a weekly basis as they rise and leave, I will know who they are and then if there is an opportunity to minister to them, knowing that they are newcomers to the Faith, I can perhaps help them somehow in their journey, whether it be just by praying for them by name or even by making myself available to help and support them if they have questions about the faith or whatever. And then, when they finally do take that final step, I will recognize them enough to be able to welcome them home.
What I’m trying to say is that, in my parish, since we don’t have the catechumens stand and then leave in the middle of Mass, and thus there is no introduction, no prayer over them, no nothing until the Easter Vigil, many of the regular members don’t even know who these newcomers are at all, and the newcomers (as well as the seasoned member) miss out on opportunities for sharing and for community and for fellowship with a new fellow parishioner. Also, if the regular member goes to a different Mass than the Easter Vigil, they may still not even know who the new members are until long afterwards (if ever at all, depending on the size of the parish). I think this is very unfortunate.
So, if the practice of catechumens leaving in the middle of Mass is something that your parish does, be thankful. I think it gives you far more opportunities for getting to know the members of your parish than if you don’t have this practice. JMHO.
JMJ
- Cheri
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BodRod
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Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 05:38 am |
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<Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - August>
Boy !!! Isn't that the truth. I have found that to be true all through my Journey. My current thinking is to go along with the program because I know, from past experience, that as I learn more I will understand more. The understanding seems to always come behind the acceptance of the belief or practice. It is something like accepting on faith and understanding on foundation.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Christine Ann
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 09:53 pm |
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Dear Rick,
On this subject, I was told last night that I will be leaving the mass after the homily on the 19th to take instruction privately, and so will not be there for the actual Eucharist. I am a baptised candidate...is this the usual way things are done? I can understand that it might be best for me not to observe the Eucharist, but it's a blessing to me to see even tho' I can't participate yet. Is part of the purpose to make others in the congregation aware that I am in RCIA? I was told I should sit up front. I'm a little uneasy about this.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 10:32 pm |
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Christine Ann wrote: On this subject, I was told last night that I will be leaving the mass after the homily on the 19th to take instruction privately, and so will not be there for the actual Eucharist. I am a baptised candidate...is this the usual way things are done? I can understand that it might be best for me not to observe the Eucharist, but it's a blessing to me to see even tho' I can't participate yet. Is part of the purpose to make others in the congregation aware that I am in RCIA? I was told I should sit up front. I'm a little uneasy about this.
Historically, those who were not Catholic were not admitted to the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The first portion of the mass, until the Prayers of the Faithful, is known as the Mass of the Catechumens. I realize that you are already baptized (which, of course, was not the case in the early days), but you still have not been fully initiated into the "mysteries" (sacraments) of the faith.
The dismissal is not intended to let others know you're in RCIA, but rather to let the community gather behind you in prayer as they send you off for further instruction. If you think about it, our Liturgy of the Word compares to the Sunday services in Protestant churches with music, scripture readings, and preaching. Most Protestant services spend more time on scripture since they have no Eucharist to share, so in leaving at the conclusion of the Mass of Catechumens, you are actually participating in the equivalent of a Protestant service, or a Jewish Temple service.
Having catechesis immediately after the readings and homily is beneficial because they are still fresh in your mind and can be more easily discussed than at a later time. Also, there is no need to proclaim the readings all over again, or spend extra time with an opening prayer service since that's already been done at mass. A half hour of instruction is better than an hour later in the week. With typical dismissal catechesis, your sponsors will join you after mass for another half-hour or so. I used to serve the coffee and doughnuts when they got there.
The reason you are asked to sit in the front is that the priest will call you forward and invite the congregation to pray for you as he sends you to further instruction. The congregation will get to see you every week so when they are asked for their recommendation on your acceptance, they will know your faces and know that you have been preparing, and be able to enthusiastically welcome you.
Since you are not yet eligible to receive Eucharist, having you stay for the Liturgy of the Eucharist serves no real purpose, until the time when you are welcomed into the full communion of the Catholic Church, in honor of the 2000 year old practice of the Church.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 10:35 am |
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<<The reason you are asked to sit in the front is that the priest will call you forward and invite the congregation to pray for you as he sends you to further instruction.>>
As I recall, in my RCIA group, the priest prayed over us each Sunday and as we moved from level of study to level of study (Rite of Acceptance, Catechumenate, etc., he asked the congregation to pray over us as well. They would raise their hands in a blessing position as the priest prayeds aloud. It is was very impressive on me torealize that 800 to 900 people were praying for me, all at one time! Then they sang as we left.
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Gail
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Posted: Sun Nov 19th, 2006 10:34 am |
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Hello to all! I understand your concern about "sending forth" our RCIA Students. I have been on the RCIA team for 2 years now, and at first I really felt that it was not a good idea to "single out" these people to leave the MASS. After witnessing it over and over again, I have came to understand that it is part of the RCIA process that makes it a moving experience for everyone. Last week one of our Catechumen made the observation during our time together after the dismissal that he felt that it made him feel that he was doing something profound...that when he had joined other churches (Baptist) he just signed a paper and that was it. It didn't mean anything. That insight helped me to understand the entire picture.
Peace...Gail
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juhorton
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Posted: Fri Dec 1st, 2006 02:00 am |
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We are having the Rite of Acceptance this Sunday, but RCIA folks will not, I don't think, be leaving mass early. This is good for me, because I'm in a bit of a unique situation. I'm a candidate, but I'm also the music director!
I used to browse these pages a lot last year when I first was exploring Catholicism. Now I believe I'm on my way home, (though some things still bother me a bit) and it's good to see you guys are still around!
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brian
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Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 11:54 pm |
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| so we have already started dismissing the catachumens before the liturgy of the eucharist, and i appreciate the idea, yet, if they come at Christmas eve mass they will be welcomed, so isnt that a little inconsistent, or should they know not to show up at Christmas.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 12:46 am |
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brian wrote: so we have already started dismissing the catachumens before the liturgy of the eucharist, and i appreciate the idea, yet, if they come at Christmas eve mass they will be welcomed, so isnt that a little inconsistent, or should they know not to show up at Christmas.
If they are present at any mass where they are not dismissed, they are welcomed to stay for the entire mass. They certainly should not avoid mass or leave early.
The purpose of leaving early is to give them extra time to study the scripture readings and the pastor's homily while it is fresh in their minds. It is not because they are not able to join us at the table. After all, anyone with a marriage problem, or a mortal sin, or who is not Catholic is welcomed to attend mass. Why should catechumens be any different?
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 02:24 am |
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well because the reason they do this is because it is a throwback to the days where only the baptized were allowed at the table. it is sort of an ancient practice. so if they are leaving early because it is like in the early church where they needed to learn more before being welcomed at the table, well, then, i don't know. i think that it is unnecessary, and keeps people from learning the mass as well as they should know it by easter. it is inconsistent. there is plenty of time to learn the scriptures through their class the homiles and the class. plus, the unbaptized in some cases may already know more than the baptized do. it is not entirelt accurate.
anyway, i accept it as what it is i guess. its kind of neat and probably God has it in usage for a reason, i am just arguing for the sake of arguing, i am not sure i really am worried about it. but i like to see how things make consistent sense, and this seems not to.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 11:53 am |
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brian wrote: well because the reason they do this is because it is a throwback to the days where only the baptized were allowed at the table. it is sort of an ancient practice.
Yes, it is. But in the early Church, the only Christians were Catholic, and they were risking their lives by attending. Those seeking to join the Church were pagans, not Protestants. Baptized Christians have always been invited to the mass. Given the Church's teaching on the necessity of baptism, there's no such thing as an "unbaptized Christian."
In the early Church, what we call the Liturgy of the Eucharist (that part beginning with the offertory) was called the Mysteries, and it was secret. One of the ways Christians recognized each other during times of persecution was in the Breaking of the Bread.
there is plenty of time to learn the scriptures through their class the homiles and the class. plus, the unbaptized in some cases may already know more than the baptized do.
Nothing fits in all cases. Single, working parents will tell you there is too little time. The presumption is that the unbaptized need an awakening of faith, while the baptized have already expressed a belief in Christ. No, it's not always true, but that is the meaning of baptism to the Church. A person must come to believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior before being baptized, and there's no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.
but i like to see how things make consistent sense, and this seems not to.
When placed in context of the early Church and the pagan belief of converts, I think it makes perfectly consistent sense. Remember that during times of persecution, allowing the wrong person to attend mass was risking certain death for the entire community. The first part of the mass, the Liturgy of the Word, closely resembles the Jewish temple service, which was allowed by the Romans. The part starting with the offering, the Liturgy of the Eucharist, was forbidden, and those who were present were putting their lives at risk. Catechumens were dismissed in part because of the danger they posed to the community.
In areas were religious freedom is allowed, all may be welcomed without endangering the entire community. In the underground churches of China, no doubt they are still extremely careful who is allowed into the celebration. In India, people have been put to death for becoming Christian, so their communities need to be extremely careful who is admitted. Catholic Christians have been killed in Lebanon and Iraq just for being Christians. There are similar problems throughout the world, and I'm not referring to ancient history, but to actions in this millennium. Catholic missionaries and converts throughout the world are literally risking their lives for the faith.
The typical Catholic convert outside the United States and Europe is not coming from a Protestant background, but from a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Ba'hai, or pagan background. The Church's rules are universal. Most Catholic converts in Africa and Asia have never heard of Christ before they begin their journey. It is much more important to teach them scripture and faith. And the rules apply to all. That's what makes the Church "Catholic."
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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