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kimdyuma
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
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| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 05:02 pm |
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okay folks I am coming out of the closet with a confession here: I got very little out of my RCIA classes other than it was a means to an end: Coming home to the Church. My class consisted; of 1 person converting from the Southern baptist church via what sounds like various almost cult like churches, myself and the remaining people were "cultural Catholics" all except one had been baptized in the CC and most had been in the church at least through first communion age. i was the only one coming cut of a practicing faith. I was classified as a "candidate" vs Catechumen however we all signed the book of elect ( I joined the class 5 months into the class ) i found that we studied the commandments, and the class had been concentrating on learning the Creeds, the Hail Mary and Our Father. All of my classmates seemed to be joining the church due to recent marriages, I was the only one in the class converting out of self generated reasons and against opposition. Don't get me wrong- I see my fellow RCIA classmates at most of the services so they are living a Catholic life and I do believe are sincere in their joining the church.
I am grateful for all the apologetic literature out there and the forum because these were far more guidance on more journey.
When we put our kids into Catholic school I was pleased to hear that they would have to take Theology classes, I had hoped that they would learn enough in those classes to join me in coming home however I found myself constantly trying to correct misinterpretations or poor catechism out of the classes. This year I am going to actually sit down and tell my kids to come to me with anything that they don't agree with from class and we will look into it as a family. As an example my DD came home and said "mom I know that you said that Catholics don't worship Mary but boy from our Theology class it sure sounds like you do" I know it is just sloppy language but it frustrates me anyhow these kids are learning just enough to be dangerous!
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 05:18 pm |
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| WOW !!! You RCIA sounds a lot different then the one I went through and am currently involved in. However, I must confess, we have the best RCIA leader in the area. We even have people coming to our RCIA and attending our parish services from the surrounding towns. Our RCIA does not do anything about trying to memorize anything. Instead, we discuss the place of the prayers in worship and we rely on their repeated use to get into the memory of the people. Our leader says that memorization is NOT necessary and that we can read the prayers while thinking about what we are saying or asking with the prayers. That is a great break for me since I can't remember what I had for breakfast some days. I find that using a CD or Mother A's program, with the nuns, is a BIG help in saying the Rosary.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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kimdyuma
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 776 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 05:50 pm |
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I am glad to hear that your RCIA ( and many others on the list) was so rewarding. On the other hand since I knew that I wanted to join the Catholic church if they had told me to jump I would have said "How high"  I also have found my life as a Catholic continues to be enriched by the wekly Mass and day to Day devotions ( such as the Rosary and okay mostly day to day devotions), perhaps my coming out of the closet will let others know that there is life after RCIA and that it gets better if RCIA is not what they had hoped for!
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Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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CajunRick
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| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 08:03 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: I got very little out of my RCIA classes other than it was a means to an end: Coming home to the Church.
I'm afraid your experience was more common than we would like to admit. But obviously it accomplished the primary objective, and that is to share the Catholic faith with you. One of our reasons for existence is to supplement local programs, since most parishes do not have access to fully trained volunteers or professionals, and cannot schedule separate classes for those at various points in their journey.
Still, it accomplished its purpose and brought you and your classmates into the Catholic faith, so it was a success.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Sun Aug 12th, 2007 08:14 pm |
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| Definitely it accomplished it's purpose, however I am still glad that I had this network to fall back on!
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 04:13 am |
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kimdyuma wrote: Definitely it accomplished it's purpose, however I am still glad that I had this network to fall back on!
Kim
When I went through RCIA, I leanred alot from the classes and enjoyed them very much. But it was not until a few weeks after baptism and then I realized that although father and the RCIA team had taught me a great deal, it was just a single drop in the Ocean of information that one needs to learn about the church/faith & practice.
I am very grateful for the network, catholic answers, a couple other forums and many different great catholic web-sites and apologist that have taught me far more then I had the chance to learn in that first year. If I study every single day and all spare moments, I figure by the time I die, I'll of barely scratched the surface in the deep treasures of teaching and learning that the church has to teach. I'm just working on giving it the best try that I can.
Betty
PS; I do pray that your children will one day join you, I know how much that means to us mom's.
I also forgot to mention EWTN. It was these folks that made me realize that I had so much more to learn.
Last edited on Mon Aug 13th, 2007 04:14 am by BettyBoopToo
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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Annie
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 11:08 am |
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| I wonder how many priests take a hands-off approach to RCIA, around here RCIA seems to be entirely taught by laity, the priests say they don't have time to teach. Then the quality of the RCIA classes can be more governed by the quality of the written materials that are used.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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mrsbmoo
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| Location: | Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 03:16 pm |
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I am sorry to say I didn't find RCIA that educational. While the reasons people had for joining were different than those in your class, it still mostly covered basics common to all Christians like the 10 commandments and apostles creed. We had 4 people who were converting from being protestant, me, another couple and a single guy. There was also an older gentleman whose wife was Catholic, a youngish fellow who had previously been an athiest and a man who had never been comfirmed as a teen but had already received first communion as a child. Really, only the former atheist needed the basic Christian doctrine. No child care was provided which was very inconvenient since at the time my youngest was under 1 yr old and at times the older 3 girls who I counted on to watch her would have to be at their Dad's. Others had to bring their kids into the class when they couldn't find a sitter. I would get very frustrated at having to come for 2 hours a week to hear what I already knew. There has been a change in the teaching team, especially the addition of some converts so I can only hope it is improving.
I do know they have changed policy and are no longer lumping people who need different things into the same group. Now, RCIA is for people who need baptism or basic instruction and people like me can enter at various times during the year as they are felt to be ready. THis actually came down from the Bishop. So many people who are converting for reasons of personal conviction(and not just marrying a Catholic) know almost as much as the teachers since they were doing much research before coming to that decision. I am just glad we have come so far from when my mother in Law converted in the early 60s, the priest came to the house, took all Bibles(until his death my father in law would only read scripture from an approved book of exerpts) and gave her a laundry list of rules-not exactly the essence of the faith.
And to Annie, our priest doesn't teach at all, and there was no book for RCIA other than the catechism, very informative but a bit dry and sometimes hard to understand.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 03:37 pm |
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Along the lines of the quality of RCIA, I would like some advice. I'm in a quandary, so to speak. I have narrowed down my choice of RCIA programs to two parishes. I'm still undecided as to which program I should enter, although I am leaning more in one direction than the other. I will separate them according to parishes and pros and cons.
St. Lukes Parish
Pros:
This is where I met Father "P" who has been so very helpful to me. He has instructed me in the Catholic faith over and over again. I have had several hours of personal communication with him, which included instruction, advise and prayer. I am encouraged by his faith and example as a priest. I'm not sure I would have the opportunity to meet such a kind priest at the other parish.
I have met a few loving and understanding Catholic brethren who have been so very kind to me. I treasure these relationships.
The atmosphere (for lack of a better word) during worship and Mass is very reverent. After Mass, it is still very quiet and many people remain in prayer.
This parish is closer to my home.
Father 'P' runs an excellent Bible study twice per week that brings out a good many devout Catholics.
Since I know Father 'P' so well, and he knows my situation quite well, it may be best to take classes where I can keep in touch with him. He mentioned in our meeting the other day that he knows that I am a Christian and if worse comes to worse, I can be baptized "conditionally."
Cons:
I attended approx. 4 RCIA classes earlier this year at this parish and found them to be mediocre. I didn't particularly like the RCIA Director's method of teaching.
I suspect that the Director may have some "liberal" leanings.
This parish does not have Eucharist Adoration. It has been said to me that the reason for this is that the main priest (who is not Father "P") does not "believe in it."
I don't ever recognize the Host in the Tabernacle when I attend Mass. This is something that bothers me. To be honest, I'm not sure where the Tabernacle is. I've never seen it.
The only font to bless one's self with is almost in the center of the church. There are no holy water fonts at the entrances. I find that very peculiar.
The main priest is not a people person at all, very aloof. I have heard on more than one occasion, bad remarks about this priest's behavior.
The last I heard from the RCIA Director, he wasn't sure when he was going to have the classes. He was leaning toward Sunday, right after the 11:30 Mass which would not go well with my schedule at all.
St. Matthews Parish
Pros:
- I went to the first RCIA class already a few weeks ago. I really like the Director who will be teaching the class. She is focused and explained all that she intends to teach, which seemed like good, solid, Catholic teaching.
- I like the inside of the sanctuary (is that the word?). This church is much older than St. Lukes and has a very reverent ambiance (for lack of a better word). There are water fonts at every entrance with which to bless yourself as one enters.
- This parish has Eucharist Adoration 4 days per week and I have gone on many occasions. The experience has been nothing short of glorious and worshipful, as well as very contemplative.
- According to the RCIA program, those in the program will have the opportunity to attend all the various Masses. The reason for this, according to the Director, is that it gives each Candidate/Catechumen the opportunity to be introduced to each priest (3 of them) and their diverse teaching/preaching styles. Also to meet various people within the parish.
- This parish has some very good prayer outreaches that attract me.
Cons:
- I'm not familiar with any of the priests in this parish. I haven't met any of them on a personal basis and therefore, cannot attest to their walk of faith one way or the other.
- The Masses that I have attended do not seem to have the same reverence about them. However, the RCIA director did mention that it really depends upon which Mass one attends. The earlier ones are quite different than the later ones.
- The RCIA Program is conducted on a Monday night which goes along quite well with my schedule.
- The Masses I have attended thus far, (which aren't that many) have been accompanied by the teen band, which I don't particularly care for. I understand the purpose is to involve the young people, but the effect is that of a less reverential atmosphere. Of course, since I haven't been to all the Masses, the music at the other ones could be much different.
- I really don't know any of the people in this parish. However, this is where I had such a beautiful experience with the young lady who went off to college already.
- At the Masses where I have attended, afterward there is not as much of a reverent attitude as at St. Lukes. Some of the people leave before the Mass is over, and are even talking. (This does not happen at St. Lukes) As soon as the Mass has ended, it gets rather noisy and I've never noticed anyone staying to pray. Everyone seems to race out of the place. That may be because this is the Mass where many families with children attend.
Now the truth is, after all is said and done, the RCIA process is just but a short part of the journey into the Catholic Church anyway. And isn't it true, that once I have become Catholic I can join any parish, not just the one where I have been initiated into the Catholic faith?
So, give me your opinions. I need to make a decision soon.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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JasPax
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 04:09 pm |
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Darlene:
Sounds like you are leaning toward St. Matthews.
I cast my vote for St. Matthews also.
You can later register at any parish you choose. But remembere, every Mass at every parish in the world is tied for first place!!!!!!
God's Blessinmgs,
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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Annie
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 04:29 pm |
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mrsbmoo wrote: I do know they have changed policy and are no longer lumping people who need different things into the same group. Now, RCIA is for people who need baptism or basic instruction and people like me can enter at various times during the year as they are felt to be ready. THis actually came down from the Bishop. So many people who are converting for reasons of personal conviction(and not just marrying a Catholic) know almost as much as the teachers since they were doing much research before coming to that decision.
And to Annie, our priest doesn't teach at all, and there was no book for RCIA other than the catechism, very informative but a bit dry and sometimes hard to understand.
Sounds like your bishop has discovered the National Statutes for the Catechumenate and yes, the part I have put in bold print is what most RCIA givers don't understand. We usually have put in years of study.
My priest catechized me with the same text they used in RCIA. Afterward, I told him it mostly covers things which are common to all Christian faiths. He didn't seem to understand that either. One wonders if the current system of bringing people into the Church ish't based on a lot of ignorance in the Church heirarchy about what Protestants actually believe and how they decide to become Catholic.
I have heard from people who joined pre-Vatican II and they were catechized individually as I was over weeks or months, whatever it was judged as necessary. So the shopping list visit wasn't typical of the time probably.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Annie
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 04:32 pm |
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| My take is that you should go through the RCIA program that is convenient and supplement it from other sources as you see fit. Then join the parish that will make you the best Catholic you can be (most reverential, orthodox, etc.). A little sensitivity to your individual circumstances is a plus too.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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mrsbmoo
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 05:05 pm |
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| I would go to RCIA at the parish where you plan to attend. Sounds like St Matthew's has more activities you like. Try the other masses to find one without the teen band. I know our vigil mass is more traditional and has more Latin, our second morning mass is the one with the kid's liturgy so family's with young kids go to that one. The early morning mass is the least crowded. I imagine other parishes have similar differences. You can continue to be get spiritual direction by the priest who has helped you so much even if you choose a different parish.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 06:24 pm |
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Darlene, a few random comments on what you wrote:
This is where I met Father "P" who has been so very helpful to me. He has instructed me in the Catholic faith over and over again. I have had several hours of personal communication with him, which included instruction, advise and prayer. I am encouraged by his faith and example as a priest. I'm not sure I would have the opportunity to meet such a kind priest at the other parish.
Ask him if he would be willing to be your confessor and/or spiritual director. SD's are frequently not your parish priest.
Father 'P' runs an excellent Bible study twice per week that brings out a good many devout Catholics.
Which you can still attend...
Since I know Father 'P' so well, and he knows my situation quite well, it may be best to take classes where I can keep in touch with him. He mentioned in our meeting the other day that he knows that I am a Christian and if worse comes to worse, I can be baptized "conditionally."
Another reason to choose him as a confessor/spiritual director. Any priest will baptize you conditionally if necessary.
I don't ever recognize the Host in the Tabernacle when I attend Mass. This is something that bothers me. To be honest, I'm not sure where the Tabernacle is. I've never seen it.
If it's a relatively new or renovated church, the tabernacle is probably in a separate location intended for private adoration. Watch where the ministers go after communion to reserve any excess hosts and that's where the tabernacle will be. You should also be able to tell by a candle, usually red, that burns continuously. If you still can't find it, ask.
The only font to bless one's self with is almost in the center of the church. There are no holy water fonts at the entrances. I find that very peculiar.
Not at all. Scripture tells us to "come to the water", not for the water to come to us. Many newer churches have the baptismal font in a place that's convenient for blessing yourself as you enter. It increases the symbolism of renewing your baptism with the sign of the cross.
Now the truth is, after all is said and done, the RCIA process is just but a short part of the journey into the Catholic Church anyway. And isn't it true, that once I have become Catholic I can join any parish, not just the one where I have been initiated into the Catholic faith?
Yes, for a serious reason you can join any parish. You are a member of the parish in which you are located geographically unless you actually register with a different parish. Of course, you are always free to attend mass at any Catholic church.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 06:38 pm |
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Rick,
So Rick, you said for a serious reason I can join any parish. So does this mean I shouldn't take RCIA at St. Matthews if I eventually intend to become a member of St. Lukes? I mean, what does "serious" mean? I will not become initiated nor take RCIA classes in the parish nearest my home. I have attended Mass there on several occasions and all I can say is, it is very liberal and I have not sensed a reverence there at all. In fact, every time I have been there, I just want to leave. I know that sounds awful, but I don't sense the Holy Spirit working through the priest at all.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 02:06 am |
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Darlene wrote: I mean, what does "serious" mean?
Serious means "not frivolous". In other words, you can't join the parish because the tuition is lower in their CCD program, or because the church is prettier, or mass is over 20 minutes faster. If you have what you consider a serious reason, that's good enough.
Remember, though, that being a member of a parish is not necessary to attend mass there. When you register and join a parish, you are choosing to be associated there and committing to supporting it financially. That parish will provide sacraments to your family, and that is the place where you expect your funeral to be conducted.
Don't join a parish just because of a priest. Any priest can validly confect the Eucharist so Jesus is present at every mass, and the priest will most likely be gone long before you will. You don't go to mass for the priest, you go for the scriptures and the Eucharist, and that is present at every mass on earth.
Beyond that, it is your decision to make.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 11:50 am |
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Darlene,
The lack of reverence is the big killer. It is the best indication that something is very wrong and you belong elsewhere. If someone doesn't notice the lack of reverence then that place is for them because it won't matter anyway.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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thiscatholicjourney
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Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2007 07:56 pm |
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One must definitely be careful going through RCIA and with religious education for children. My RCIA/Religious Education director taught that the Bible is NOT inerrant. I brought this up with her at the end of RCIA and she argued with me stating I was not letting go of my "Protestant view of Scripture". Despite all the Church documents, etc. showing her otherwise, she insisted this was Church teaching and that I would NOT be permitted to be a catechist (sp?) in that parish because I held views that were contradictory to Church teaching.
I promptly pulled my kids from religious education there and moved to a new parish... in addition to writing a letter to the bishop where he confirmed that the Church does NOT teach that the Bible contains errors.
Overall, my RCIA experience was great! I believe the director is sincere in almost all she is teaching... but on this issue, she was sincerely wrong.
It's definitely important to take what you're learning in RCIA and test it against Church teaching.
Last edited on Thu Aug 16th, 2007 08:00 pm by thiscatholicjourney
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Proudly entered the Catholic Church in 2007!
Learn about my journey!
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BriarRose
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Posted: Thu Aug 30th, 2007 02:12 am |
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I'm rather glad I found this thread to read through--I had been concerned that the small problems I've had in the past, were something more major than they actually were--one being the lack of over all enthusiasm for even teaching the RCIA classes, by the person from the Parish nearest my home--at that time, I was still having such difficulty trying to commit to converting, so his attitude caused me to simply back out--I regretted doing that, though, only a short while later--because, I just needed some help getting over some ingrained, 'catechized' fears of Catholicism, itself, instilled in me by others who still fear the Catholic Church--since I genuinely really did wish to convert--I call what happened with me, as getting 'cold Protestant feet', which I couldn't seem to avoid on my own.
Plus, I've decided to change my way of viewing the differences in each Church in our area--I first attended one nearest our home--and, I never meant to, but I became somewhat uncomfortable with the fact that even though the walls were white, they, upon closer look, appeared so dingy--they really needed a good cleaning!--that sort of depressed me a bit, with me thinking that, maybe, the area's Parishes in general, might be on the poor side, money-wise, since, when we moved to this county, someone told me that this was a depressed area, finacially--in effect, our county was poor!--well, that actually energized me in the direction of wanting to help out, once I'd converted--so, that was kind of a plus!
But, by the time I knew I was really ready to enroll in the RCIA once again, this time, for some reason, I was becoming extremely interested in learning more and more about the Blessed Mother--and, that's when I felt this inner desire to call the Parish office a few miles further away from us, that is located downtown--because of the fact that it's name is "Queen of Apostles"--I wasn't so sure I was calling them for any of the right reasons, though, until I was speaking to Sr. Marie, about taking the RCIA, and when I told her that, for some reason, I really wanted to take the classes at Queen of Apostles, because of it's connection with the Blessed Mother, I could actually hear her 'smile' as she spoke to me, afterwards--and, that really made me feel very glad I'd called!
So, even though, as of now, I am their only RCIA student, Sr. Marie, and my lay teacher, Rae, are just wonderful, and have been nothing but helpful to me--not to mention that, since Rae used to teach at the local high school, she is not only very sweet, and nice--but, strict, when it comes to the things she expects me to learn each week, prior to the next class! Plus, she found me a wonderful lady to be my sponsor, and I couldn't be happier, she is so nice, as well as has been extremely helpful to me, already, so far as helping me to understand more of what is going on during Mass--I am familiar with most of what goes on, but she was able to answer any of my questions, so that was great!
But, I think the most amazing thing to me occurred the first time I ever entered the Church's Sanctuary, before my first Mass there--and, the entire Sanctuary was so pristine looking, like a huge breath of fresh air--and, along each side of the room were some of the most amazing stained glass windows, all depicting different stages of the Lord's Passion--but, the biggest stunner for me, was above my head, on the barrel ceiling--on which was painted a huge portray of the Blessed Mother, floating on the clouds, right above the heads of all 12 Apostles--I couldn't take my eyes off of it, once I'd noticed it!
Now, about the actual Mass, itself--after reading some of the things said about others experiences, the only thing I can think of to add to it all, is the fact that, last Sunday, our Priest decided to tell us all that he didn't agree with some of the Church's teachings, and that included how the Church viewed the acceptance of those who were married for the second time, after having been divorced--well, as soon as he said that, I began praying for him, because what he said was very disturbing to me--plus, right after that, when he said to us all--"The Lord be with you"---he almost couldn't hear the congregation say back to him--"And, also with you."--I think everyone was about as stunned as I was, and it had been hard to get out that phrase, at first--so, he said, "I can't hear you!"--so, we all repeated it--and, some tried to sort of laugh it all off! I may have chuckled a bit due to nervousness, but I took what he said extremely seriously, so I continued to pray for him!
But, I continued to remember what Rae had told me, as she outlined some information on some of their past Priests--and, by the time she was finished, and I was more than bit stunned[one of their Priests had been shot dead at the local high school, she'd said--among other things] she immediately made sure that I understood one thing--we go to Mass NOT because of the Priest, but because of the LORD--she said, Priests come and they go--and, that, the current one is due to leave shortly!--but, the Church will remain, and it's people will still be there every week, to worship and to serve Christ--so, I was so very glad she'd made sure she gave me that little pep talk, because it genuinely came in handy last Sunday!
I will just be so very glad once RCIA is over, next Easter, and I can become a full-fledged member of the Catholic Church--and, can finally be at peace in my heart, mind, and soul!
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The Blessed Mother said to Bernadette during the 16th Apparition, at Massabieille, on 3/25/1858: "Que Soy Era Immaculada Conceptiou."
Pax Christi,
Briar
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