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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 02:39 pm |
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Hello Folks,
I'll give you an update on my RCIA experiences thus far. Yesterday evening I attended an RCIA meeting at St. Matthews parish. In another post, The Pre-Convert and the Eucharist, I spoke about my quandary, whether or not to enroll in classes at St. Matthews or St. Lukes. I gave my pros and cons for each.
Well, last night settled this dilemma. I know for sure that I will not be taking RCIA classes at St. Matthews. Almost from beginning to end, I was very uncomfortable being there. Now this is a subjective reaction, but none-the-less, I do not want to sit in a class where I feel uneasy. The reasons for this are many fold.
The ages in this RCIA class are very young, high school and college age for the most part. There was only one other man that was near my age. I would not ever have an interest in joining a young adult Bible study, which is directed toward the needs of those of that age. I think this was one of the reasons why I felt uncomfortable.
Secondly, the three speakers who spoke of their reasons for having faith in God did not inspire me in the least. I do recognize that these speakers had a faith in God, but their expression of it was very shallow. Of course I know that there are Catholics who have a mature faith in Christ, but these three speakers, whom the Director chose to speak to the class, were unimpressive. As to how others felt, I cannot say.
Thirdly, the Director went around to each RCIA enrollee and said where each would be placed and why. When she came to me, she said that I would most likely be a Catechumen. My heartfelt reaction was one of immediate sadness, almost so that I began to cry. The Director proceeded to explain the difference between Candidates and Catechumens, which I already knew. She said that the Candidates will stay for the entire Mass, while the Catechumens will leave after the Homily, to "break open the Word." She continued in saying that the reasons Candidates don't need to leave after the Homily, is that the Church already assumes that baptized persons should know the Bible well enough to understand the homily, while Catechumens need instruction in the Bible.
Ok, time out here and let me vent. At the beginning of this class, the Director read a passage from scripture and asked the whole class if anyone had an idea of what it was saying. I waited to see if anyone would respond, even yes, the Candidates. No one did, so I responded. And my response was in line with what the Director intended to say. And the Church assumes I don't know the scriptures?
I will not sit in a class where it is assumed that I don't know the Word of God. I have attended Bible College, taught Sunday school, have been involved in evangelization, and have memorized scripture all these 30 years of being a Christian. I have loved Sacred Scripture as a Protestant and feel hurt that it is assumed I won't understand the Homily. Every time I go to Mass and the holy scriptures are read, I am quietly reciting the scriture passages along with them. When the homily is taught, references from scripture come to my mind like flowing water.
The whole reason for not being a Candidate is that I cannot (as of yet) verify that I was validly baptized. However, I know that I was after talking to the Baptist pastor who specifically said that the Baptist church baptizes in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Today, I called the Baptist church where I was baptized for at least the fifth time. I spoke with the woman who is in charge of the Records of Baptism. She even had my name and a note beside it. She asked me why I needed a record. I told her that the church I am joining wanted me to have it. She quipped, "What, don't they believe you?" I said that sometimes people don't tell the truth. She went on to tell me that sometimes records get misplaced, yadda yadda. I suspect that the pastor has cautioned them not to release the records since he knows I want to become Catholic. While I wait to hear from them again today, I think this is a dead end.
I have sent two emails to the pastor who baptized me in the Jordan River, but have not heard from him either. He is a VERY busy man, involved in television ministry (not TBN) and speaking engagements all over the country. I know that he also baptized me according to the proper form. He is a graduate of Moody Bible Institute, Dallas Theological Seminary and the Southern Methodist Seminary and has degrees from a few other Bible colleges as well. Each of these schools teaches baptism according to the Trinitarian method. While I am waiting to hear from this pastor, I don't know that I will. At least not in time to start the RCIA process rolling.
I do not think it is God's will for me to be baptized yet again. I came forward for baptism while in Israel because I wanted to be sure that I was doing the right thing. I backslid after being baptized the first time and questioned whether or not I was really a child of God. I asked Jesus to make it right the second time if it wasn't right the first time. I cannot, after knowing that I was baptized validly twice already, be baptized again. This would not be pleasing to God. It would be as if I were confessing that I have not been a Christian all these years. That would be a lie.
And so it is that I am questioning whether Jesus really wants me to join RCIA at this time. I am even questioning whether He is leading me to become a Catholic. I've considered going to a Lutheran church somewhere just to be baptized so I can get on with this whole RCIA process. But that seems to be trying to force something that isn't meant to be, at least not now. AND I'VE ALREADY BEEN BAPTIZED!
This RCIA process seems to leave folks like me falling through the cracks. Another issue is that I want to attend church with my husband while attending Mass as well, in order to maintain harmony at home. The RCIA program at St. Matthews does not work well with my particular situation. I'm not sure it will be any different with St. Lukes.
What strikes me as odd is a Catholic, who has been away from the Church for many years, can return just by going to Confession. He may or may not know the scriptures. He may or may not have been taught well. He may little or next to nothing about the Catholic faith and yet, he can return with very little preparation. Not long ago, Father said to me that I know the Catholic faith better than many Catholics because of my intense studying and desire to learn the beauty of the faith. Yet, because of a "technicality" I may not ever be able to become Catholic.
So there you have it. I love everything I have been learning about the Catholic faith, from the Holy Eucharist, to Penance & Confession, Holy Orders, the Magesterium, the Communion of the Saints, Tradition, honoring Mary, and praying the Holy Rosary. Yet it seems that the Holy Spirit is keeping me from being Catholic at this time. If this is true, then I must accept God's will. I will be inwardly Catholic, perhaps for a long time if not the rest of my life.
Today I will go to Eucharistic Adoration and ask Jesus what I should do. I also intend to pray a Novena. But I cannot force something of my own will if it is not meant to be at this time.
Love in the Lord Jesus,
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 02:47 pm |
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Dear Brothers and Sisters,
After I sent this post, I began crying. I cannot tell you how unsettling this is to me. Please understand that I have not animosity toward the Catholic Church. I am thinking though, that for some reason Jesus does not want me to become a Catholic. At least not now.
I appreciate your prayers.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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TT17Claret
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| Joined: | Fri Aug 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Summerville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 22 |
| First Name: | Tony T | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 02:56 pm |
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Darlene,
Have you shared what you wrote above (exact words) with the pastor at that parish? The RCIA director may have placed you where he/she saw fit according the instructions and may not know your situation as well as the priest does. In any case, the pastor has the final say. I'd share with him exactly what you shared above. And I do agree about some lapsed Catholics able to just wander back without much, if any, catechism. My old parish has a program called "Landings" specifically designed for lapsed Catholics. Not necessarily reverts, as those may benefit from RCIA in order to be "deprogrammed"  You will be in my prayers.
Tony T.
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Do NOT be discouraged, even Moses started out as a basket case.
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 718 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 02:57 pm |
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I understand perfectly the pain. I endorse your decision not to return there, it isn't that they are not following the rules, they have the letter and not the spirit and you will doubtless encounter other problems there. This was just the initial warning from God that you don't belong there. I know this from personal experience about 10 times or so, where I stayed in a situation after initial indications said I should leave and it turned out to be very against God's will.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1212 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 03:03 pm |
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| Darlene, I agree with you on every point. I can't think of anyone who knows scripture better, you have examined the catholic church inside and out to even know that it's what you want to do. I do believe if the RCIA director knew this she would make appropriate arrangements for you. About the second pastor you were baptised by, even though he is busy, it may be that an assistant or secretary will be able to handle it for you by way of letter. Sort of like having the faith Abraham had when offering his son Isaac as a sacrifice to the Lord. He didn't know how it would work out, he just knew the Lord would provide. Please don't give up. I forget the details, is this the pastor you like so much? Maybe he can be of help, even with communicating with the protestant pastors. Or communicating with his RCIA director! God bless and keep on trucking, you'll get there!
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 718 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 03:25 pm |
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Seems like your priest could call your baptismal church and ask if you were baptized. If he is THAT busy then there may be a time management problem. After all, my priest catechized me individually and he has a parish of 2400 families all by himself, no associate priest, no deacon. If an email were sufficient in my case a phone call should be in yours.
Though all this does not negate your being out of place due to age and experience.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 03:28 pm |
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Thanks so much for responding so quickly to my concerns. Just last night, after I returned home, I thought of what Jesus said to the scribes and pharisees in Matthew. He said that they strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. And as you said Annie, they have the letter of the law and not the spirit.
Last night, as disquieted as I was in my soul, I gave my full attention to what was being said by the speakers and RCIA Director. Meanwhile, the young man next to me was rooching about, looking here and there, as though there was some other place he would rather be. You must understand that as a Protestant, this is very odd behavior to me. The Bible studies I have attended were for those who were serious about their faith, and they showed it. Yes, there were various opinions, but each one of us was devoted to knowing and loving the Word of God. And although I have been among Protestants who don't know the scriptures very well, when they were called upon to give testimony of their faith, they would do so with enthusiasm and vigor. I want to see this same kind of enthusiasm among Catholics. And why not? Do they not have the FULLNESS of the faith?
Perhaps this is the difficulty other Evangelical Protestants encounter when considering converting to the Catholic faith.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 718 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 03:34 pm |
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I was never from a conservative background but I at times find it shocking  how Catholics take things for granted vs. the evangelical Protestants I know. The exception is the Catholics who go in for deeper studies like becoming members of tertiary orders  , seek spiritual direction, etc. Then they leave the mainstream Protestants way behind, in the dust, cough, cough.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 263 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 04:10 pm |
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Dear Darlene, God calls us to humility in the strangest ways. And there's always so something, er, humiliating about it!!
Imagine how Padre Pio felt when he was told he wasn't worthy to hear confession any more! Isn't that crazy? Yet Padre Pio angrily defended his bishop when someone spoke against that bishop on Padre Pio's behalf. Padre Pio saw the value of obedience and of the graces this excruciating cross would bring to a man for whom people would stand for days in line.
Maybe God is testing you hard because He finds you worthy of this. Many of us would buckle by this treatment but you are different. Meaning you are up to this. And God has chosen to send this particular cross to you. In other postings you have called yourself a hard case. I wonder if this trial is necessary for you. I don't mean this unsympathetically at all - its hard to convey the sadness I feel for you. But I hope you will look at this trial as a gift and continue without discouragement.
Did you know that before the 60s everyone entering the Church was conditionally baptized? My 87-year old Mom remembers well. It didn't matter where you came from, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Lutherans - all got conditionally baptized. Please don't think that you are being asked to be re-baptized. If anything, you will be asked to be CONDITIONALLY baptized and there is nothing wrong with that. If you are indeed baptized, then a conditional baptism will have no effect. The Church always used to do this, just in case, because a Catholic wasn't at these baptisms to make sure all was well. You are being told this because the Church loves you.
Are you second-guessing God? Is the failure to get proof of your baptism maybe a gift?
I dunno, it is entirely possible that this parish could be very traditional and just what you need. I didn't know that the Church still asked Catechumens to leave at the salient part of Mass. Awesome. I agree with Tony above that you should communicate with somebody there to tell them your story. That might change things there or help you to move to the next parish.
I feel bad for you and will continue to pray for you. Hang in there girl!!
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 05:23 pm |
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Tina,
Actually, I am considering this to be a cross I must carry. For how long, I don't know. But I cannot agree to a lie. If conditionally baptizing all coming into the CC prior to the 1960's was the way the CC did things, then I would have had to comply. But that is not how things are done now. At least not in this diocese.
Please understand, that by enrolling as a Catechuman I believe I am agreeing to a falsehood, namely: 1. That I have never been baptized validly, which is untrue. I've been baptized twice. 2. That because I've not been baptized validly, I am not a Christian. Sorry, I cannot agree to this. Even the dear, kind priest I saw at St. Lukes two weeks ago who prayed with me said he knows I am a Christian, and 3. That I have no knowledge of the scriptures. I have loved the Word of God as a Protestant and have prayed many times as David, "that I may lay up thy Word in my heart that I may not sin against Thee."
Yes, just like others, I desire to understand what is going on throughout the whole Mass. Catechumans leave halfway through. This is one area that I recognize I need instruction in. Thus far when I attend Mass, I am on my own. The Candidates all stay back and learn the rubrics of the Mass and why things are done the way they are.
I am trusting that right now this is how the Lord is dealing with me. I cannot compromise on my conscience and Christian beliefs. I cannot do what I think is admitting to a falsehood. Therefore, if the doors do not open for me to join RCIA as a baptized Christian, then I will take this as a sign that Jesus does not want me to become a Catholic at this time. And if the doors never open, then this is His sign to me that He does not want me to become a Catholic.
How can I go against my Christian convictions and my conscience?
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 263 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 06:41 pm |
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Dear Darlene,
I guess I was making a poor correlation of history of millions who have submitted to conditional baptism as something that you can do too. I didn't mean that this is required today. Its not going to hurt you!
No don't do something you believe is wrong. You know I'm a big fan of you and your good radar. Its difficult for us both to communicate in just a few postings. Neither have I been to this parish to understand the real context. God may be leading you to get around some really bad mojo and continue. But I sense of another level of battle, maybe I'm wrong.
Not being recognized as having all the knowledge and worthiness you know you have, might not mean what you think it means.
Throughout history, saints have been treated like dirt, misunderstood, underestimated, lied about. Padre Pio certainly was more worthy to give confession than others around him. And he knew that. And all those standing in line for days in his confessional line knew that. But this didn't make him get indignant and quit, saying "its God's Will that I shouldn't be a priest". He simply complied. Or when Mother Angelica was told they couldn't show Mass "ad orientem" - she knows its more perfect to do but she complied in obedience and Mass is said on EWTN facing the people.
If the Church says you are a Catechumen, speak your peace to them if you wish, then accept it. Is this really up to you? Perhaps you are applying human reasoning here? Is God asking you to consider who the Authority is?
Do you think maybe there is a difference between what you think and what God wants?
I am not disagreeing that you have all the qualities you say. You put me to shame. But don't miss the point that God may be asking you to take a lessor spot at the table first.
Please don't think I don't recognize the difficulty you are in and see the deep disappointment you've expressed. You have expectations of attending Mass completely and hopefully with your family too. You long for the Sacraments. Also with your tough history of cult-control you are understandably resistant to having the Church define who you are and what you should do. Does it make you want to holler "no! This is who I am!! You can't tell me I'm otherwise!"? I can identify with this excruciating emotion myself.
I don't want you to misunderstand what I mean, so forgive me if I come across plain here: You are not the judge of whether or not you've been baptized, the Church is. Yes, it may come out that your baptism is fine. And you may get to skip instruction of stuff you know already. Or maybe not. This is an authority thing. And along the same logic, you may be familiar with Scriptures, but do you know them from a Catholic interpretation? Never mind that you know them better than me or most Catholics - just suppose for a moment that God is calling you to understand the Scriptures according to YOUR capabilities which are huge. So maybe from His standpoint you have a lot to learn. Or unlearn.
Is this a "test" for you to see past human interpretation, "self-determination", and accept the Authority of the Church? Then you will be a better Catholic.Last edited on Tue Aug 28th, 2007 06:44 pm by Tina in Ashburn
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 597 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 08:16 pm |
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I hesitate to jump in, but there's so much the same with what happened to me - and yet a couple things different, too.
Last year about this time, I finally decided to join RCIA. First, for a couple weeks, I went to a church 20 miles away because its pastor is so orthodox. But as I contemplated the fog that envelopes the valley in the winter, I decided to look closer to home.
In Visalia, there are 2 parishes. St. Mary's is the non-Hispanic church, and I looked there first, but I didn't like the book they were using for RCIA at all. I did have one old friend who attended Holy Family. He's an old Irish Catholic, so I figured they weren't ALL Hispanic over there. I went to a Mass and loved the church building the minute I walked in. Can't describe that.
I called the RCIA directors and got the details and showed up for class - a few weeks late, but they let me in. Here I am, a 50 year old white lady and the entire rest of the class is fairly young Hispanic adults. What an oddball I'm sure I was! No one was ever very friendly to me, but I was so determined to finish that I stayed.
Baptism? I, too, had been baptized twice. Once as an infant, proof being a newspaper article about how it was done in an airport. The second time after I "got saved" at a non-denom church that declared my infant baptism worthless. I don't think I ever got any proof on that baptism. It may have been invalid for all I know!
At the Easter vigil, I was supposed to be 'conditionally baptized.' Father wouldn't accept the newspaper article as proof. OK. Whatever. But the words he used were those for baptism, not conditional. So, I'm thrice baptized! (There were dozens of us being confirmed and baptized and he probably forgot my situation. I don't know what to think, but whatever is, is.)
It's been hard to feel accepted at Holy Family as it is 90+% Hispanic. Not many are well catechized. But a breakthrough is happening right now as Father is feeling the need to get things moving and I am one of the facilitators for a Little Rock Scripture Study beginning next month. I spoke at the end of both English Masses about how people need to be in Bible study. Now people talk to me. It's like they've decided I'm OK.
The whole process has required me to swallow my pride, hide my knowledge, force my way in - do all sorts of things that I never had to do as a Protestant. I've wondered more than once if Holy Family is where I belong. Surely someone like me should be at St. Mary's, right Lord??? But Holy Family is where God has put me for now. It's sort of exciting, actually, as I sense that, if I can stay out of my own way, God will use the knowledge and gifts He's given me over my Protestant years to help this church. At least, that's what I'm waiting to see...
As I've read your posts over the last several months, Darlene, I have seen much of myself in them. You are much more Bible literate than I am and much more determined and driven, yet I have often related perfectly to your journey. Still, we are on our own individual journeys.
For what it's worth, I've offered my little story...
Jill
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 09:08 pm |
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I just came back from Eucharist Adoration. I prayed to Jesus about my concerns and He will take care of this dilemma from here. I will also call the priest at St. Lukes who has been very kind and patient with me.
BTW, I received a call back from the Baptist church. The records secretary said she could find no record of my baptism. She apologized and said that back then, records were't kept in good order.
Darlene
P.S.: I met a wonderful elderly couple at Adoration today. They have been attending Adoration for 11 yrs. They were there for the last hour and went up to the monstrance and removed it from the altar. Before removing the monstrance, the wife knelt for some time before the Blessed Sacrament. Then she covered her head with a large shawl and she and her husband sang a hymn before removing the monstrance. I had never heard the hymn before but how beautiful it was to hear this couple sing. I spoke with them both outside the church for awhile. I sensed that both of them had such joy in Jesus. What a blessing to meet godly Catholics like these two.
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 28th, 2007 10:28 pm |
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Darlene wrote: I just came back from Eucharist Adoration. I prayed to Jesus about my concerns and He will take care of this dilemma from here. I will also call the priest at St. Lukes who has been very kind and patient with me.
Darlene;
I spent the early afternoon praying for you and your needs. I'm very grateful that you sound much better this evening that earlier.
I agee a great deal with Tina & Jill, I think they both have done a great job sharing their experience and thoughts.
I remember a great deal of anxiety and strees going through the RCIA process and it is truely only by the grace of God that I continued. I felt so out of place, I felt way too old to be starting at the very bottem of the christian journey and having to relearn everything, I'm not nearly as mature or knowledgeable a christian as you, so I can only try to understand how difficult & awkward it may feel to you. Humility is such a painful process and even though the others may not know that your a very mature and knowledgeable christian, God Does! As Tina metioned, maybe he wants to groom or add to what you already know.
BTW, I received a call back from the Baptist church. The records secretary said she could find no record of my baptism. She apologized and said that back then, records were't kept in good order.
As I was praying and considering your dilema with your baptism, it kept comeing to mind. "What if God wanted you to go through the conditional baptim?" I too had been baptized before. But I came to the conclusion that if the lord did not want me to be baptized again or felt it not necessary, then it would come back as valid. It did not and I ended up getting baptized again( looking back and the enormous change it made in my soul, I'd not miss it for the world, as there was an enormous difference being baptized by a priest). Its hard to explain, but it was different. I also had previously been attending mass and I did not like the dismissal, nor did I enjoy the mass I was required to attend either. I did it any way as I viewed it as the Lords will for me on this journey. I still attended on fridays so I could stay the whole time, as I just loved to be present at the consecration, even though I had to remain in my pew kneeling and praying. I also found this time painful too, as my soul felt as though I had nearly starved it from the body,blood, sould and divinity of our lord. But going through this time of starvation in the desert thirsting for the lord, actually made me stronger to continue on to the completion.
P.S.: I met a wonderful elderly couple at Adoration today. They have been attending Adoration for 11 yrs. They were there for the last hour and went up to the monstrance and removed it from the altar. Before removing the monstrance, the wife knelt for some time before the Blessed Sacrament. Then she covered her head with a large shawl and she and her husband sang a hymn before removing the monstrance. I had never heard the hymn before but how beautiful it was to hear this couple sing. I spoke with them both outside the church for awhile. I sensed that both of them had such joy in Jesus. What a blessing to meet godly Catholics like these two.
I think this was a blessing and gift from the lord for you today. I'm not dismissing the pain you must be going through and I believe that you have went through a great deal on this journey. I'm just wondering after all you have sacraficed to follow the lords will and all you have learned about his church. Will you be able to find peace in another church, knowing the truths that you already have come to know.
After the lord revealed to me that the RCC was his church, I knew that I could never go back to another protestant church and in good faith worship where I knew was not his church. (attending with your husband to respect his wishes is another situation) (I had considered it along the way) and for myself, came to the conclusion that I would be in direct disobediance to our lord if I were to do so.
I've mentioned it before, but everytime I'm praying for you and your husband, it always comes to me that the lord has bigger plans for you both. both of you have wonderful knowledge and precious devotion and commitment to his word and I believe the the catholic church may open some possibilities for you both to share your talents in a way that you may not have found in your past church experience.
I will continue to pray for you and dh daily, I know that your aware that it sometimes takes alot of pain & suffering to come into his Glory. my responsory prayer earlier to day in my LOH made me think of you.
Lord, listen to my cry; all my trust is in your promise. Dawn finds me watching, crying out for you.
God Bless
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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NanaR
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| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 141 |
| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 09:57 am |
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Darlene:
I can identify with so much of what you say. The first time I was informed that my baptism is not valid, I was devastated. I was baptized at 14 by Jehovah's Witnesses and have always considered myself a Christian.
At our first RCIA meeting, the leader asked to see the hands of those who had not been baptized. I had to raise mine. Then he said something like these people have to start from the beginning since they are not Christian. That was very hard to hear.
I have read the Bible through more than once. My father used to get our whole family up at 5:30 am so that we could read the Bible together. I have been researching the Catholic faith for more than a year. I am reading the Bible and the Catechism through again using the guide on this forum. I attended a Lenten Bible Study at the Catholic Church, and I attend the "Praise and Prayer Group" there when I can. I have felt the action of the Holy Spirit in my life and in my journey. I am not a beginner.
Later in the meeting, the leader did mention that there are some who come to the Catholic faith after having been baptized in a tradition the Church does not accept. So when I made one of my comments, I mentioned that I was such a person, and had considered myself a Christian since age 14 but that was not recognized by the Church.
I have had prayerful struggles about this, but the RCIA booklet is clear that my baptism is not valid. So I begin at the beginning.
I am attending a Mass before the RCIA meeting so that I can still feel the spiritual communion with Christ during the Eucharist. How I long to partake of the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord!!
One thing that helped me was I scheduled an appointment to talk with the Pastor directly before starting RCIA. Among other things, he approved my marital status as being acceptable for my being received into the Church. This was a great relief, as the RCIA folks seemed unsure about it.
I am determined to be Catholic. It is not being made easy for me. I am a strong-willed person, and some of these steps are difficult for me to take.
I will pray for you, Darlene. Will you please pray for me as well?
Your sister in Christ,
Ruth
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When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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JasPax
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 05:56 pm |
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Darlene:
For what little it is worth, I agree with Tina, Betty, Jill, Ruth, et al.
I can understand somewhat how you feel. I was age 68 during RCIA. Most others were college age or twenty-somethings. I had to make sure I got there early to get a front row seat because of my hearing problem. Even tho' I was a candidate, the practice at our parish was to dismiss all of us, both candidates and catechumens, after he Liturgy of the Word. I knew this was not the correct form, but I accepted it with humility. Also, both groups attended the same RCIA classes from September to Easter. Also incorrect.
In my past I've had several college level Bible classes, read widely, attended more forums and conferences than I could count and taught adult Bible classes. I won't say that I wasn't sometimes irritated (silently) at what I had to go through.
BUT, by this time I knew the Catholic Church was the Truth. No matter what it took - whatever hoops I had to jump through - I was going to persevere. If they told me that I would need to be re-baptized - then I would have been first in line. It was just a matter of accepting whatever roadblocks were placed in my path to get where I knew God wanted me to be. Remember, those are only humans (volunteers) running the RCIA. They do things incorrectly sometimes. They are not The Church. God calls us to be humble!
Also, remember what our early Church fathers and mothers had to endure if they became Catholic.
Now, I know this is going to sound harsh, and I apologize beforehand. But are you letting your ego get in the way? God knows what you know, even if others do not appreciate your knowledge. Maybe God is bringing you down a peg-testing you- because He has greater plans for you.
I intend this in the spirit of love. I want you to be Catholic! We all do!
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 07:08 pm |
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I would venture to bet that there are, more or less, two kinds of RCIA folks: those who are just trying to complete their sacraments because they might be wanting to get married in the Church and those who are converting from another faith. Many of the former are confirmed and rarely darken the Church doors again. The latter, as I was and as many here have testified to be, will brave hell and high water to get into the Church. Whatever it takes, whatever has to be endured, we want IN!
The interesting thing is that God taught me many things through what I "endured" to get into the Church. Those lessons were probably the ones He meant me to learn all along...
Jill
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 07:08 pm |
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Thank you all for your comments. We each have a journey of faith, and although there may be similarities that we all share, there are particulars among each of us that are unique.
I think if I had only been in the cult (Church of Bible Understanding) and was looking to join the Catholic Church with this experience alone, I would truly understand and accept the C.C.'s hesitancy to consider me a Christian. This would be true if I had belonged to many of the sects/cults, which do not believe in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, or in the resurrection of the body, or eternal life, or Original Sin, etc. Many of these sects/cults deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, such as the Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses, to name a few.
However, I left the cult and renounced all I had learned that was dangerously heretical. I have gone on to embrace a Christian faith, in which I believe wholeheartedly in Christ's shed blood on the cross for the remission of my sins. I believe in the Apostle's Creed. I believe in all that Christ said in the Lord's Prayer. I believe that one has to remain faithful to Christ until the end, not eternal security. I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I have believed these things for over 20 years.
Furthermore, I have already been VALIDLY baptized twice. As you already read, I chose to be baptized the second time because I wanted to be sure I was baptized properly. I had questions regarding my salvation after the first time I was baptized because I fell away from the faith. I believed and trusted that I was a child of God, especially after I made the decision to be baptized a second time.
Please understand that I truly believe I am agreeing to a falsehood if I allow the Catholic Church to say I am not Christian. Ruth, I could not raise my hand and agree to not being a Christian. Don't you understand, that would be a lie? And the truth is, I am considered to be a Christian, separated brethren yes, but still a Christian according to the Catholic Church. Why? Because I have been validly baptized. And Mormons, Christian Scientists, Jehovahs Witnesses, and members from other cults have not been validly baptized. Ruth, you came from a Jehovahs Witness background which denies the deity of Christ, denies the Trinity, denies the resurrection of the body, basically denies all that the Apostles Creed says. I would agree wholeheartedly with the C.C.'s view that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian, because they deny all the tenents of the faith. Just merely knowing scripture is not enough. Had I only come from my cult experience, where we memorized scripture constantly, I would, as I said, understand the Catholic Church not accepting me as a Christian.
The other issue is that I must go with an RCIA program that will work with my particular situation. I am not going to attend classes that prevent me from attending church with my husband. Read Journey's Home by Marcus Grodi. There you will discover many who were on the same journey of faith as myself. But they continued attending church with their spouses while attending Catholic Mass as well. I know this is what I should do to make my marriage as harmonious as possible, and to be submissive to my husband as much as I am able.
Anything is possible JasPax. If I am being proud, I trust that the Holy Spirit will convict me of this. I have been earnestly praying about this matter.
Again, thanks for all of your comments.
In Christ's Love,
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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NanaR
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| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 141 |
| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Wed Aug 29th, 2007 07:38 pm |
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Darlene:
The purpose of my post was not to compare the two of us, but to empathize with your difficulty.
My physical baptism may not be considered valid, but I have lived a Christian life to the best of my ability for the past 40 years. The Lord has been with me the entire way; otherwise, I would not be here.
I wish you well in your journey,
Ruth
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Cath | | | |
