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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 678 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 01:45 am |
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In two different churches' RCIA classes, it has been stated that Jonah is not historical but purely allegorical. But then I read here on the Catholic Encyclopedia, that those who claim that have been believed to be unorthodox. So, why is this being taught? And should I say anything or just "get through the class"? The class is being taught at such a simplistic level. Very few members have read the Bible as evidenced by her asking several times, "Who's read Genesis?" "Who's read Ruth?" Almost no hands were raised.
This is a bit frustrating. I've looked into 3 different RCIA classes this year and none of them seem very good in terms of the depth of teaching nor the orthodoxy of what's taught. Is there anything I can do, or just grin and bear it?
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 02:20 am |
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Jill, the article takes this position against the Modernists, heretics who basically wanted to “explain away” anything supernatural. They flourished in the 19th century and into the early 20th century. After the Second Vatican Council, there was a big resurgence of Modernism, now being taught as the “new orthodoxy.” It wasn’t and it isn’t.
Nevertheless, if the prophet Jonah never actually existed, would that bankrupt Catholicism? No. There is no dogma that says this prophet actually existed or that the biblical book of Jonah is historical fact. There are, however, some theological lessons that can be learned from this story regardless of its status as historical fact.
The same thing can be said of the book of Genesis. The double story of creation could be literally true, or it could be totally symbolic. We weren’t there, we don’t know. But there are some theological lessons to be learned from these ancient texts, and it is with these that the Church is primarily concerned. Historical fact is important where it can be determined, but where it cannot, we should accept the traditional interpretation as the most probable.
I recently discussed the literal sense of scripture in the thread on John 6 here. This should help you understand what is required.
Regarding classes that are neither in-depth studies nor orthodox, I would not worry much about the former because their purpose is not to make you an expert in something. They teach just the basics that every Christian should know. I would, however, be careful to learn what is orthodox as versus what is not, even if the distinction is not carefully adhered to in the classes. In other words, if you suspect the teaching is skewed, get a more reliable source. Meanwhile, I would recommend you just grin and bear poor teaching. Your own turn will come soon enough, and hopefully you will volunteer to help out in RCIA next year.
Finally, regarding who has read the bible and who hasn’t: my experience is that neither Catholics nor Protestants do a very good job of actually reading and learning. So if you see few to none hands raise when asked if they’ve read a particular book of the bible, remember that many of these are the same people who, as Protestants, had said that their faith was founded strictly on the bible. What does this tell you about their former faith? Hopefully they will learn at least who actually respects the bible and encourages people to read it, even if they never do get around to doing it themselves.
David
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 678 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 03:03 am |
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| Thank you, David, for your thoughts. To respond to one part of what you had to say, I don't think that many if any of the folks in this class are converts as I am. Most of them are there just for confirmation. They're already Catholics. Which brings me to another question I was thinking to ask, but maybe it's unnecessary. Has there ever been any thought of having separate RCIA classes for converts and for cradle Catholics? I would bet that most of the folks in the class have been going to the Catholic church for much of their lives but never finished confirmation. So, they know a lot about the Mass, how to follow the missal, and they probably know the meaning of the terminology of Catholicism. I may have read more of the Bible than they have, but when it comes to living a Catholic life, I don't know much of anything. I guess I'll pick it up as I attend Mass and other church events, but it would be nice to get a "jump start," if that were possible.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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David W. Emery
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| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 08:55 am |
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OK, I’m adjusting my picture now.
Separate RCIA and confirmation classes are the norm. But if you are dealing with adult cradle Catholics who have not been confirmed, the reason is quite likely that they have been inactive and really don’t know much of anything. So they are basically unchurched and uneducated. This is why they would not have read their bibles. At least now they are beginning to wake up to God.
So my next question would be, Why are the teachers asking who’s read what? Surely they know who these people are and why they are in the class
Once again, I cannot stress too much the importance of supplementary sources. And again I suggest that next year you get involved with the parish religious ed team.
David
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 12:19 pm |
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JillD wrote: Has there ever been any thought of having separate RCIA classes for converts and for cradle Catholics? I would bet that most of the folks in the class have been going to the Catholic church for much of their lives but never finished confirmation. So, they know a lot about the Mass, how to follow the missal, and they probably know the meaning of the terminology of Catholicism.
The Rite actually envisions separate programs for catechumens (the unbaptized) and candidates for full communion (those baptized in other churches). Those who are baptized Catholic do not belong in RCIA at all. They should be in a separate program completely.
Reality, on the other hand, often makes this virtually impossible. In most parishes there are not enough catechists or participants to justify two separate programs. Candidates are often the most highly motivated and most knowledgeable about the Catholic Church because of the journey they made before making their decision. They usually come from a faith system that is already ingrained, so their questions are about Catholic teaching. Catechumens are more likely to have questions about the nature of God, the relationship of God to humanity, etc., that a candidate takes for granted.
Adult candidates for confirmation may have left the Church and joined another ecclesial community, sometimes for decades, in which case they are really candidates for full communion (although not technically). They ask the hardest questions because they are asking to be convinced of a belief system they have already rejected once. However, most of them have little motivation other than to satisfy a relative or to satisfy some requirement to be a Godparent or to be married in the Church. They have little or no faith development and no real desire to gain faith. They're there because they have to be to accomplish a goal. Most likely once they achieve their objective, they'll either become twice-a-year Catholics or they'll never return at all except for weddings and funerals. A few (a very few) genuinely want to complete their initiation in the Church which was prevented because they moved, or their parents divorced, or they have developed a real interest in the faith at college or in adult life. But they are the real exception.
As part of my RCIA instruction I take every participant on a tour of the church, which includes information on the symbolism of the architecture and its relationship to the Temple of Solomon, the messages in the stained glass windows, a look inside the tabernacle (Eucharist removed), a look at the sacred vessels, the monstrance, and the priest's vestments, an explanation of the bells and why they ring when they do, etc.. My tour takes about two hours, which is more time than most of them have ever spent in church in their lives.
These are things few people, including practicing cradle Catholics, typically know, so the tour is interesting to everyone. I also explain how to use the missalette, why we kneel, sit, and stand, why we use holy water to bless ourselves, etc. I also encourage them to ask questions, and the cradle Catholics will typically ask questions like, "I've always wondered what that door over there is..." (usually indicating the ambry, the "little door" where the holy oils are kept), while candidates will ask about statues and paintings. I encourage the Catholics to tell about their first communion or other memories of things that happened in our small rural church, so their memories become part of the tour.
Each participant gets a copy of the missalette to take home and bring back week to week. I encourage them to read the Sunday readings prior to the weekend masses, and again before class which is held on a weeknight. I think the tour levels the field, and from that point each person encourages the other. The candidates for full communion usually already have a strong faith, and they can help encourage faith development in the adult candidates for confirmation and the catechumens. The catechumens can talk about being raised without faith, while the adult candidates for confirmation often talk about growing up with mixed messages.
So a blend can be very valuable in which everyone is enriched by the participation of others.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Katy
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | DFW, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 78 |
| First Name: | Katy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-denom/Bible churches, Catholic since Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 12:34 pm |
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JillD wrote: This is a bit frustrating. I've looked into 3 different RCIA classes this year and none of them seem very good in terms of the depth of teaching nor the orthodoxy of what's taught. Is there anything I can do, or just grin and bear it?
Hi Jill,
Although I love my parish, I must say that the RCIA program was not as in-depth as I needed. It was mostly covering basic beliefs, but since I had been a Christian for 15 years before coming home to the Catholic Church, it wasn't enough for me. I still attended, but I read many books on my own to learn and study the issues I needed help with.
I would say attend RCIA at the parish that you like, attend most, and plan on attending after you convert.
Welcome Home!!
Katy
____________________
Lord, by Your cross and resurrection, You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World.
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 274 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 07:23 pm |
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| I felt much the same way when I began RCIA. I had read the entire Bible more than once and studied both protestant and Catholic doctrine before I came to the decision to join RCIA. THe first few months were on basic Christianity. I use to complain to my husband that I wished I could just take a test and prove I already knew enough. Eventually one of the others on the class pointed out that we didn't need to go over the material in the reading assignment because we had already read it and the leaders did change tactics. We started to hit some of the more contrversial and difficult areas of doctrine. We spent several sesssions talking about what we struggled with most about Catholicism and even had a couple sessions where we got to ask the priest anything for 90 minutes. I especially liked that one. So I wouldn't give up on your program yet.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 678 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 08:17 pm |
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Unfortunately, the priest is not teaching any of the classes; at least it doesn't seem to be that he will. My understanding is that because he is covering 3 parishes, he always seemed to be called away at the last minute when he was teaching, so they just took him off the list of guest speakers. I think I'm going to have to "grin and bear it" this time. I do read a LOT of other material (thank you, Cindy!) and so I'm getting a good education outside of class.
What I need is an education, not in basic Christianity, but in the material that is uniquely Catholic: using the missal(ette), terminology, various devotions, etc. That's why I thought there ought to be two classes: one for Catholics who know a lot about Catholicism but not much about the Bible and teachings, and another for those who know their Bibles, but not much about Catholicism. Or, maybe each class could focus one hour on each type of person; then those who know neither would get a good education, too!
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 09:19 pm |
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JillD wrote: What I need is an education, not in basic Christianity, but in the material that is uniquely Catholic: using the missal(ette), terminology, various devotions, etc. That's why I thought there ought to be two classes: one for Catholics who know a lot about Catholicism but not much about the Bible and teachings, and another for those who know their Bibles, but not much about Catholicism. Or, maybe each class could focus one hour on each type of person; then those who know neither would get a good education, too!
Why don't you drop by your local Catholic bookstore and look for a book like Why Do Catholics Do That? or Catholicism for Dummies. Ask them for recommendations.
As for the missalette, ask your catechists if you can take a copy home to familiarize yourself with it. There are several missalettes on the market and each one is different, so you need to get accustomed to the one you use. Then, ask questions. Once you get the concept down, you'll be able to use any version easily.
One of the things I do in my RCIA program is make pens and large (4x6) index cards available at all classes so that anyone at any time can write a question. They can leave it on the table or hand it to me, or sometimes (if time permits) I'll ask if they have any questions. Sometimes they'll have questions about something they heard on the news, or something they saw in church, or something someone else asked about, or something they read in scripture. The written questions have the advantage of giving a catechist the time to look up the answer or schedule a speaker or even address the issue privately if they think it won't be helpful for the entire group. Some specific questions such as health or marital issues can fall into this category.
You'd be surprised how little many Catholics know about their faith. Trust me, they need to be in those classes. As for you, your background in scripture does not include the Catholic interpretation of passages, so you'll find that you'll be learning things, too.
Try to spend some time browsing the shelves at a good Catholic bookstore. You don't have to buy anything, but you'll find a gold mine of information on specific practices and devotions. The workers there should be familiar with their products and the way people use them, and you can even ask other customers for assistance. I often overhear conversations while I'm walking around and jump in to offer assistance. In case you haven't noticed, many of us are quite anxious to share our faith and knowledge. Your diocese also probably has a lending library available, and your parish may have one, too. Call and ask!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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