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Kim M.
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 11th, 2008 |
| Location: | Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 413 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Assembly again, PCA, ... |
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 01:30 am |
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Free wrote: I would encourage Bible study on this point.
Go back into the Old Testament and read how God told the Israelites two very important truths about the blood:
1) God explains that life is in the blood;
2) and he explains how important it is that his chosen people do not eat meat that still contains the blood. He especially cautions them against eating strangled animals.
Most people are not raised to butcher their own meat. I raised my own chickens, rabbits and pigs for many years, and I can tell you that in killing a creature, you must do it in such a way that the blood does not remain in the muscle meat. You can actually kill an animal too fast, and it will not bleed out. And a strangled animal does not bleed out at all, unless you immediately open its veins.
In the Old Testament God explains that the Israelites must not eat the blood of animals, because he does not want the life that is in animal blood to be eaten by his people. He does not want animal nature to become a part of the nature of his chosen people. Now, if we trust that God is telling us the truth, and that He knows best about these things, being the Creator of us all, then we can happily obey him, and know that it is for our benefit to follow his teachings.
When we get to the New Testament, Jesus tells his followers that unless they eat his flesh and drink his blood, there is no life in them. Hmmm...sounds kind of like the life is still in the blood, yet this time it is the very life of Christ that is in the blood, and God wants us to eat it. Well of course he does! He wants us to take into our biological beings the very life of Christ. God wants the very nature of Christ to enter into us through the eating of the slain and risen Lord's flesh and blood.
Now, if we trust that God is telling us the truth in the Old Testament that the life is in the blood, why not trust that he is telling us the truth in the New Testament, that the life of Christ is in the blood? And if we can believe that he is telling us the truth, then we see how necessary it is to obey God and honor him in recognizing the body of Christ on the altar before receiving him eucharistically. We can see how important it is to not simply spiritualize what we are receiving. God created us body and soul and called us good, and he desires to nourish us, body and soul, with the life of Christ.
Furthermore, if we believe that Paul was telling the truth about the dangers in receiving the elements without discerning the body of Christ, then we can see that it is God's mercy that is preventing us from taking communion without yet understanding and acknowledging the Real Presence of Christ on the altar.
When Jesus explained how vital it is to believe that the flesh his followers were to eat was his real flesh, and the blood he was asking them to drink was his real blood, many followers turned away and did not follow him any more. That turning away is still happening today, because the teaching is still hard. If a person trusts in Christ, then a person will desire to accept this teaching of our Lord, even though it seems hard at first. Miraculously, after it is accepted, it becomes the sweetest gift of grace of all.
Wow, Jane, very interesting perspective! Thanks for sharing that. Makes sense! 
Last edited on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 03:16 am by Kim M.
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"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 108 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-demoninational, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 03:10 am |
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I just read something Gregory of Nyssa wrote in the 300's that is similar, although much more nicely put, than what I wrote:
"Rightly, then, do we believe that the bread consecrated by the word of God has been made over into the Body of God the Word. For that Body was, as to its potency, bread; but it has been consecrated by the lodging there of the Word, who pitched His tent in the Flesh. From the same cause, therefore, by which the bread that was made over into that Body is made to change into divine strength, a similar result now takes place. As in the former case, in which the grace of the Word made holy that body the substance of which is from bread, and in a certain manner is itself bread, so in this case, too, the bread, as the Apostle says, 'is consecrated by God's word and by prayer'; not through its being eaten does it advance to become the Body of the Word, but it is made over immdeiately into the Body by means of the words, just as was stated by the Word, 'This is My Body!'...In the plan of His grace He spreads Himself to every believer by means of that Flesh, the substance of which is from wine and bread, blending Himself with the bodies of believers, so that by this union with the Immortal, man, too, may become a participant in incorruption. These things He bestows through the power of the blessing which transforms the nature of the visible things to that [of the Immortal]. " (Quoted from Jurgens Faith of the Early Fathers)
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amichael18
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 11th, 2008 |
| Location: | Monroe, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 7 |
| First Name: | Mandy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Trinity Lutheran Monroe, Missouri Synod |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 11:43 pm |
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Michelle1982 wrote:
When I was searching in the Catholic church, I started reading Catholic books.
What type of books did you read? I have been looking for some at my library but haven't been able to find ones I am looking for, possibly on the history of the religion and so on.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4977 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 12:49 am |
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amichael18 wrote: Michelle1982 wrote:
When I was searching in the Catholic church, I started reading Catholic books.
What type of books did you read? I have been looking for some at my library but haven't been able to find ones I am looking for, possibly on the history of the religion and so on.
What is it that you're looking for, Mandy? Perhaps we can give some recommendations.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Didi
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 153 |
| First Name: | Didi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic; almost left; Now an On-Fire Catholic! |
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 01:39 am |
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I heard a good explanation once about why non-Catholics are not allowed to receive communion. Maybe it will help those who are struggling with this.
When a man and woman decide to marry, they should not consummate their relationship until they are bound by God as husband and wife. It is a sacramental union. To do so before they make their public vows of fidelity and love for each other would be a sin.
If you are not Catholic, you have not made your "vow" in public to the Church to be faithful to Jesus and His teachings as passed down for 2,000 years in the Catholic Church. Holy Communion, receiving Jesus in the Eucharist, as Catholics believe, is also a sacramental union. To receive Jesus in the Eucharist before making your promise to be faithful to His Church would be a sin.
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Laughing Elf
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| Joined: | Sat Feb 16th, 2008 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
| First Name: | Rod | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, PCA, agnostic, Buddhist, Episcopalian, Methodist |
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 02:59 am |
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This has been a good thread for me to read. I now have two standing invitations from two different catholic friends to attend mass at two different churches, one on the top of the mountain and one in the valley  .
The information received here has helped my confidence in taking this step forward. 
Peace,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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amichael18
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 11th, 2008 |
| Location: | Monroe, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 7 |
| First Name: | Mandy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Trinity Lutheran Monroe, Missouri Synod |
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 06:47 pm |
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Rick, really books on the history of the religion, any facts type books, anything that a converting Lutheran would need to read I guess.
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4977 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 12:48 am |
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amichael18 wrote: Rick, really books on the history of the religion, any facts type books, anything that a converting Lutheran would need to read I guess.
Mandy, that's a hard one. The history of the Catholic Church begins with Genesis 1:1 and is still being written. It's not so much a book as a lifetime study.
One book you might find particulary interesting is Roots of the Reformation by Karl Adams. It is a good, objective appraisal of the conditions in the Church at the time of Martin Luther. Adams later became Catholic, and the booklet-version includes his conversion story. The portion of the book that deals with the reformation itself is available online from EWTN.
Another book I would recommend to you is the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults, which is available from many online sources and should be available at any bookstore, and especially Catholic stores. It does an excellent job of explaining the Catholic faith with references to the Catechism, but also includes lots of information about the history of the Catholic faith in the United States.
If you are really interested in history books on the Catholic faith, I would recommend you visit the library or bookstore of a Catholic university. I haven't found a good, mass-market type of history that I would recommend. That doesn't mean they don't exist, only that I haven't encountered them.
You could also browse the shelves at a Catholic religious store or ask for recommendations from a priest, and of course we'll be happy to do our best to answer any questions you might have here. But as a starting point, I would recommend the USCCA I mentioned above, and Roots of the Reformation, for someone from a Lutheran background.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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MichaelStEdmund
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 93 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Mon Mar 24th, 2008 05:25 pm |
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Regarding books that would be good for a converting Lutheran, I think a few staples would be Karl Keating's "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" (yes, parts of that are pretty outdated, but overall it's still good) and Patrick Madrid's "Surprised by Truth" series of books, which feature conversion stories from people of various backgrounds. Sometimes I'll re-read those stories, and think, "Yes, I was asking the same questions. I can relate." Other than those, take a look online at the books published by Ignatius Press or Our Sunday Visitor. You might find something helpful in their catalog.
As for the Church's "closed communion" policy:
From Scripture, St. Paul speaks at length about properly discerning the Lord's body in I Corinthians 11:20-30. That is, having a proper understanding of and attitude toward the body and the blood of Christ. This not only excluded unbelievers, but also many believers. It still does.
To use a somewhat bizarre (and unfortunately inadequate) illustration:
You can't blame a man for choosing not to kiss a picture of his mother at his Baptist sister's place when he believes that the real woman is available just down the street. That's not elitist or judgmental. It simply is what it is. Reality is the stronger magnet, and makes the type and shadow infinitely less desirable.
Now, imagine that Sister comes over to Mom's (Catholic) house for a visit. She is convinced that Mom is actually a type and shadow. In other words, Mom is a hologram or a life size portrait to sis. In addition, Mom tells Brother and Sis that she would rather not be kissed unless they know that she's something more than a picture (I Cor. 11:20-30). This really breaks Sis's heart, because she does love Mom so much. At some point, she goes ahead and kisses Mom anyway, against Mom's wishes, and finds out it's not the end of the world. Sis walks away just happy that she could spend time with Mom's "picture." Mom, while happy to be loved, wishes that Sis could understand what's really going on.
Is brother better than sis? No. Does Mom love brother more than sis? No. Does Sis love Mom more than brother? No. Are brother and sis in unity? Only so far as they love the same Mom. Otherwise, their experience is vastly different. It's a difference in *perception* that is causing a huge divide.
Sis doesn't believe that Mom is present physically at all, and longs to be with her, whether in Heaven or in some other manner. Brother knows Mom is present, even if it's in a way that isn't obvious to Sis, and he loves her company.
All right, that may be a very inadequate and convoluted illustration, but I'm trying to get some basic ideas across. If anyone feels like improving on this little "scenario," go ahead.
Blessings,
= MLast edited on Mon Mar 24th, 2008 05:26 pm by MichaelStEdmund
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"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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