 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
kimdyuma
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 774 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 02:52 pm |
|
| Can someone tell me what they are?
____________________
Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5079 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 03:31 pm |
|
kimdyuma wrote: Can someone tell me what they are?
"Scrutinies are rites of self-searching and repentance." A complete explanatiion of the Scrutinies can be found in this bulletin insert, from which the quote is taken.
An explanation of the Scrutinies as part of the RCIA process, including quotes from the actual Rite, can be found here.
In essence, the Scrutinies, celebrated on the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Sundays of Lent, are an invitation to the catechumen (now part of the Elect) to scrutinize his decision to join the Church one last time, and to determine for himself if he has progressed far enough in his faith to make a commitment to Christ and his Church. It is also a final opportunity for the community to scrutinize his faith commitment and conversion, and to pray with and for him. After the Scrutinies, the final decision will be made by the Elect and by the community to accept the Catholic faith at the Easter Vigil.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 678 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 03:53 pm |
|
Is it intended only for catechumens or also for candidates, in some way??
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5079 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 04:13 pm |
|
JillD wrote: Is it intended only for catechumens or also for candidates, in some way??
Only the elect (who were catechumens prior to the Rite of Election) should participate in the Scrutinies. It is the final step in deciding whether they will present themselves for Baptism. Candidates are already baptized Christians, so their only decision is whether to join the Church.
A parish may wish to acknowledge candidates in some way, but they should never participate in the Scrutinies, and should be clearly distinguished from the unbaptized.
I know it is often a harder decision for a candidate than an unbaptized person, but the fact is that the Church sees candidates as only changing their type of Christianity from imperfect communion to full communion with the Catholic Church, while the unbaptized are making a much more significant faith decision to accept Christ.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
kimdyuma
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 774 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 08:13 pm |
|
| Even though I am a a baptised Christian our parish seems to make no difference between Catechumens and candidates- I will be going through the scrutinies with my fellow RCIA classmates. I don't believe that I will be baptised though - from what I understand Sister is telling me that I will "just be making a proffesion of faith unlike the others" Even though our marriage is considered valid our Monsignor still wants us to have it validated in the church. What ever.. They have asked me to provide my baptismal records (done) and my confirmation in the Anglican church for them ( in the process) and of course our marriage certificate which was signed and performed by my SB brther in law (done).
____________________
Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
|
|
|
thiscatholicjourney
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | Reno, Nevada USA |
| Posts: | 34 |
| First Name: | Amber | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | From non-denominational to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 08:25 pm |
|
I am also a baptized Christian and they will be having us go through the Scrutinies as well. When I questioned the RCIA director about this, I was told that it's just what they do on a "pastoral level".
They DO, however, distinguish between those who are baptized and those who are not... so I'm a bit more comfortable with it.
Last edited on Wed Mar 7th, 2007 08:25 pm by thiscatholicjourney
____________________
Proudly entered the Catholic Church in 2007!
Learn about my journey!
http://thiscatholicjourney.com/blog.htm
|
|
|
RSWinCO
Member
| Joined: | Sun Mar 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Colorado USA |
| Posts: | 9 |
| First Name: | RS | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran (LCMS), Lutheran (ELCA), Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 05:01 pm |
|
cajunrick wrote: Candidates are already baptized Christians, so their only decision is whether to join the Church. A parish may wish to acknowledge candidates in some way, but they should never participate in the Scrutinies, and should be clearly distinguished from the unbaptized.
My RCIA class has the candidates go through the scrutinies as well as the catechumens. I wasn't able to attend mass at the times when the scrutinies were held, so didn't particpate, but this reinforces what I had read elsewhere, namely that the scrutinies were really only for the catechumens/elect (non-baptized).
____________________
"Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt." John Henry Cardinal Newman
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5079 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 05:21 pm |
|
RSWinCO wrote: cajunrick wrote: Candidates are already baptized Christians, so their only decision is whether to join the Church. A parish may wish to acknowledge candidates in some way, but they should never participate in the Scrutinies, and should be clearly distinguished from the unbaptized.
My RCIA class has the candidates go through the scrutinies as well as the catechumens. I wasn't able to attend mass at the times when the scrutinies were held, so didn't particpate, but this reinforces what I had read elsewhere, namely that the scrutinies were really only for the catechumens/elect (non-baptized).
That is correct. Candidates for full communion are already Christian and already counted among God's Elect. They should never be grouped with catechumens for any rite prior to Confirmation and Eucharist. It is acceptable after the Elect are baptized that the Candidates make their profession of faith, and then all join together for Confirmation and Eucharist, since they are all now equally Christian and are completing their Catholic initiation.
Candidates do participate in the Rite of Acceptance and Rite of Sending but separately from the Catechumens. They do participate not in the Rite of Election but in the Call to Continuing Conversion which happens at the same ceremony. They may be dismissed together for instruction, since that is not a ritual action. Candidates should not take part in the Signing of the Senses, the Presentations (Crucifix, Creed, Our Father), the Exorcisms, or the Scrutinies. They do participate in First Penance, which Catechumens (now the Elect) do not do prior to their Baptism. And of course, only the Elect are baptized.
It is very clearly specified in the Rite that Catechumens and Candidates are to be treated separately and never the same for any Rite or ceremony.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
CloisterWalkin
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 7 |
| First Name: | francis | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | LCMS, Non-Denominational, RCIA |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 07:30 pm |
|
Does each parish/priest have the authority to decide whether or not their candidates will be required to participate in Scrutinies, Signing of Senses etc.?
Thanks! :o)
____________________
~There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing.~Archbishop Fulton Sheen
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5079 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 07:51 pm |
|
CloisterWalkin wrote: Does each parish/priest have the authority to decide whether or not their candidates will be required to participate in Scrutinies, Signing of Senses etc.?
Well, yes and no.
The Scrutinies are pointless for the previously baptized. It's a waste of effort. The real harm is in misleading the congregation into believing that previously baptized Christians are the same as the unbaptized, and that is absolutely not true and forbidden. It would be like baptizing those coming in from other Christian denominations. It would be pointless at best and extremely misleading at worst.
Not all priests and catechists see the significance of the separation and feel that everyone should be treated equally, which is contrary to the instructions in the RCIA. The previously baptized are to be treated as separated brethren with full acknowledgement of their status as members of God's family. The unbaptized are being prepared for adoption into Christianity, to which the previously baptized already belong. They are to be separated in every rite and ceremony up to the moment of confirmation at the Easter Vigil, at which point they stand together.
The fact is that no one is going from parish to parish and checking on how individual parishes are conducting their programs. It is left to the discretion of the pastor to make sure his program is conducted properly so if he decides to do it wrong, it's doubtful anyone will notice.
Unless, of course, someone asks a question somewhere like here.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
CloisterWalkin
Member
| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 7 |
| First Name: | francis | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | LCMS, Non-Denominational, RCIA |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 08:39 pm |
|
cajunrick wrote:
Well, yes and no.
The Scrutinies are pointless for the previously baptized. It's a waste of effort. The real harm is in misleading the congregation into believing that previously baptized Christians are the same as the unbaptized, and that is absolutely not true and forbidden. It would be like baptizing those coming in from other Christian denominations. It would be pointless at best and extremely misleading at worst.
Not all priests and catechists see the significance of the separation and feel that everyone should be treated equally, which is contrary to the instructions in the RCIA. The previously baptized are to be treated as separated brethren with full acknowledgement of their status as members of God's family. The unbaptized are being prepared for adoption into Christianity, to which the previously baptized already belong. They are to be separated in every rite and ceremony up to the moment of confirmation at the Easter Vigil, at which point they stand together.
The fact is that no one is going from parish to parish and checking on how individual parishes are conducting their programs. It is left to the discretion of the pastor to make sure his program is conducted properly so if he decides to do it wrong, it's doubtful anyone will notice.
Unless, of course, someone asks a question somewhere like here.
Thank you! I guess I just needed confirmation that I didn't make a mountain out of a molehill!
I have been reading this forum and when I learned that RCIA instructions say that candidates and catechumens should be separate (same class, different rites?) I told my RCIA team. They said they were aware of this and then said "technically you are correct but we have decided you all will participate in Signing of Senses and Scrutinies and we have convinced Father to go along".
I really wanted to be obedient and come under the authority of the RCC but I felt like this RCIA team was knowingly going against what the RCIA instructions say. I decided to go to a different parish where RCIA instructions are pretty much followed. I love my new RCIA and am doing great!
Thank you again for clarifying this for me!
____________________
~There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing.~Archbishop Fulton Sheen
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5079 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 12th, 2007 08:45 pm |
|
Thank you! I guess I just needed confirmation that I didn't make a mountain out of a molehill!
No, I don't think you did. It subverts the very carefully designed, centuries old program of the Catechumenate to include candidates and catechumens together.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Talithacumi
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 260 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 03:05 am |
|
cajunrick wrote: kimdyuma wrote: Can someone tell me what they are?
"Scrutinies are rites of self-searching and repentance." A complete explanatiion of the Scrutinies can be found in this bulletin insert, from which the quote is taken.
An explanation of the Scrutinies as part of the RCIA process, including quotes from the actual Rite, can be found here.
In essence, the Scrutinies, celebrated on the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Sundays of Lent, are an invitation to the catechumen (now part of the Elect) to scrutinize his decision to join the Church one last time, and to determine for himself if he has progressed far enough in his faith to make a commitment to Christ and his Church. It is also a final opportunity for the community to scrutinize his faith commitment and conversion, and to pray with and for him. After the Scrutinies, the final decision will be made by the Elect and by the community to accept the Catholic faith at the Easter Vigil.
Rick,
I'm just a little bit unclear... what would you say about a parish that doesn't even celebrate these kinds of rites during the Liturgies - if at all? (Hey, what do I know about what they do during their RCIA meetings?)
My parish priest - God love him - he's a good priest, and he's pretty orthodox for the most part. But... he seems to be something of a minimalist in certain areas, like with devotions and celebrations. Sometimes it seems like the quicker he can git 'er done, the better, as far as he's concerned.
Personally, I like celebrations that express the meaningfulness of Catholicism. Every year it's something of a sore spot with me because Father never celebrates those rites before Easter where the catechumens and/or candidates stand during the Liturgy and are seen and prayed for by name and then are sent off. It's sad and I hate to admit it, but usually when you talk about all these rites and so on that are supposed to take place among the Catechumens/ Candidates during the Liturgies, I'm usually feeling a little unfamiliar with the process you're talking about because in my parish we don't even practice any of that.
But hey, I'm not the priest. If that's the way he wants to do it, who am I to say anything? Unless... there's a Church mandate that these rites are to be celebrated during the Lenten Liturgies. Is this so? And should I say anything to my pastor or ask him why he doesn't do it the way most Catholic Churches do? It really bothers me that we can't really even pray for these people by name or support them along their way simply because we don't even know who they are; I don't ever even remember it being announced in the bulletin just who is coming into the Church. Is this something that is at the pastor's discretion? Or should I say something?
Just wondering...
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5079 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 13th, 2007 11:20 am |
|
Talithacumi wrote:Sometimes it seems like the quicker he can git 'er done, the better, as far as he's concerned.
Unfortunately, many priests have this attitude. They hesitate to add anything to the liturgy that might make it longer unless it is absolutely required. The Scrutinies are recommended but not required. Signing of the senses and the presentations along with the minor exorcisms can be done outside of the mass, or not at all.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Current time is 03:17 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
